Smite Neutrals

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RedGiant
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Smite Neutrals

Post by RedGiant » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:30 pm

In line with the new update...I think we should ALSO be able to Smite the muddling middle, those annoyingly grey neutrals!!!
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:32 pm

Smite is one of those hardcoded abilities that will likely go unchanged until Arelith is making use of haks.
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Iceborn
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Iceborn » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:32 pm

"Smite Infidel" is a good version for it.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Wytchee » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:52 pm

I have no strong feelings on this one way the other.
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Nitro
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Nitro » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:14 am

Me: What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Paladin: I dunno, but my god says fiddle that guy in particular, so here I go smiting again!

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Jack Oat
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:44 pm

Nitro wrote:Me: What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
Paladin: I dunno, but my god says fiddle that guy in particular, so here I go smiting again!
Honestly there are a bunch of people who should have been evil aligned, but were mechanically something like "Chaotic Neutral" specifically to avoid being smote. They were closer to Neutral Evil, but avoided it using shenanigans to keep from being smote. I think that's the bigger issue, but that's a debate for another topic.

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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by PleasantSolitude » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:53 pm

With enemies you know where they stand but with neutrals? Who knows? It sickens me..

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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by RedGiant » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:59 pm

I wrote this half as a joke and half serious because of exactly what Jack describes.

But on a more fundamental level, I really don't like that simple alignment neutrality makes you pretty much mechanically immune to alignment based powers. To compensate for that, I'm thinking of a half-way-serious suggestion here.

Much like the protection from alignment spell which, on Arelith, invokes "half-measures" on neutrals (bah-dum-tiss): what if neutrals were say subject to 50% "smite evil" damage and 50% subject to "smite good" damage? They would still get a small benefit from their median alignment choice, but collectively, they hit the 100% mark that evil and good has to deal with. Also, unlike the protection from alignment spells, this is somewhat mediated by the fact that no single character will have both abilities.
Last edited by RedGiant on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Irongron » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:01 pm

RedGiant wrote: Much like the protection from alignment spell which, on Arelith, invokes "half-measures" on neutral:
what if neutrals were say subject to 50% "smite evil" damage and 50% subject to "smite good" damage? They would still get a small benefit from their median alignment choice, but collectively, they hit the 100% mark that evil and good has to deal with. Also, unlike the protection from alignment spells, this is somewhat mediated by no single character will have both abilities.
This isn't a bad idea at all. Going neutral to avoid smiting is commonplace.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:07 pm

Will certainty be interesting to see paladins smiting the non-evil and receiving a blessing for it.

A better option might just be to bump the evil neutrals down to evil.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by RedGiant » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:12 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Will certainty be interesting to see paladins smiting the non-evil and receiving a blessing for it. A better option might just be to bump the evil neutrals down to evil.
You make non-evil sound cutesy. Neutral is half evil!

Also, the DM time investment to do the level of alignment management you suggest...for a server with this many character...*shudders*

Besides, this is how the protection spells already function.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Manjappa » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:21 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:A better option might just be to bump the evil neutrals down to evil.
Yes, this. Paladins shouldn't get to "smite neutral", if anything they should get fallen for trying to smite someone neutral. Instead of doing this as some sort of fix for the alignment cheese, maybe enforce actually playing your alignment. Because if you don't enforce alignment there is also nothing stopping one from just being a good-aligned psychotic babykiller either, so this fixes nothing.

Lawful/chaotic is harder to spot, but DMs can shift alignment a few points if they observe good/evil acts being committed. If that changes you from neutral to evil, tough luck. If that causes your Paladin to become fallen, tough luck. Make alignment actually mean something rather than just a restriction on which classes you get to munchkin together.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:21 pm

I don't see how hard it is to shift someone when they act a specific way. Take reports, you can already report evil paladining and druiding.

If there's no alignment shifting going on for evil acts, why bother even being neutral? The people that just don't want to be smited will just be 'good.' All this proposal will encourage is people just picking good now. In most cases nothing stops that.

It will just make the problem worse.
Manjappa wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:A better option might just be to bump the evil neutrals down to evil.
Yes, this. Paladins shouldn't get to "smite neutral", if anything they should get fallen for trying to smite someone neutral. Instead of doing this as some sort of fix for the alignment cheese, maybe enforce actually playing your alignment. Because if you don't enforce alignment there is also nothing stopping one from just being a good-aligned psychotic babykiller either, so this fixes nothing.

Lawful/chaotic is harder to spot, but DMs can shift alignment a few points if they observe good/evil acts being committed. If that changes you from neutral to evil, tough luck. If that causes your Paladin to become fallen, tough luck. Make alignment actually mean something rather than just a restriction on which classes you get to munchkin together.
Exactly. Enforce peoples alignments.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Iceborn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:33 pm

You cannot enforce alignments because not as players, not as characters can understand exactly the whole of the alignment. You cannot get a real feel of a character and judge their complexity in a single "you are evil", or "you are neutral".

Alignments are cosmical tendencies, and it is up to us to play them to the best of our abilities.

Most of my characters were neutral. Kiravias, Atrilabax, Veritas, all characters that dabbled or did questionable things but without malice, or did things for the greater good with malice, or held malice while X. All these characters had flaws, they had good intentions, they had egoistical intentions, they had resentment and dark thoughts, they had enemies, rivals, beliefs. Were they evil? They could be. Were they good? They could be. In retrospective some of these characters may have done more good than good characters, healers and paladins, but they remained neutral in alignment because they never merited to be more than that.

If you want to enforce alignments, the best you can do is send a report to the DM team about how X character is doing this and that and just... let it be. Maybe they'll get an alignment switch, maybe they won't. One way or another, smite neutral seems like a better solution.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:39 pm

I was suggesting DM's bump people around for being evil/good.

But if you dont' want that enforced, and this change goes in, enjoy the NG murder hobo's then.

If people pick neutral just to avoid smiting (as alleged) then expect people to pick good for the same reason.

And my god did Paladins just get powerful.
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:40 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:goodbye CoT's unique gimmick of 'smite infidel' as that just sort of became everyones thing.
CoT doesn't have 'Smite Infidel.' They have Smite Evil.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:52 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:goodbye CoT's unique gimmick of 'smite infidel' as that just sort of became everyones thing.
CoT doesn't have 'Smite Infidel.' They have Smite Evil.
Whoops wrong server. Disregard.

Edit; I was wrong about many things, ignore my posts.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by MoreThanThree » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:27 pm

>Divine Might
Gee don't paladins already have a Smite Neutral that they can use more often than and for longer time periods than Smite Evil?
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:34 pm

MoreThanThree wrote:>Divine Might
Gee don't paladins already have a Smite Neutral that they can use more often than and for longer time periods than Smite Evil?
>Using may-may arrows on a forum
>Being generally disrespectful about something you're wrong about to begin with

Gee doesn't smite do (Paladin + CoT level) * Great Smite level to physical damage with an AB increase of CHA modifier vs. evil foes?
Gee doesn't Divine Might only do CHA mod bonus to damage as divine?
Gee doesn't that mean that a Smiter build does actually hundreds of damage, on top of Divine Might?
Gee doesn't that seem like the two feats are completely different?
Gee isn't this mode of posting somewhat demeaning to read and make me come across as rude?

In the future please focus on using a more constructive method to express your thoughts, such as "Paladins get Turn Undead and then can get Divine Might which allows them to still do damage to neutral foes." To which the counter is, simply, "Yes but it isn't remotely near what Smite Evil can do, what's your point?"

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Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

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My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Iceborn wrote:You cannot enforce alignments because not as players, not as characters can understand exactly the whole of the alignment. You cannot get a real feel of a character and judge their complexity in a single "you are evil", or "you are neutral".

Alignments are cosmical tendencies, and it is up to us to play them to the best of our abilities.

If you want to enforce alignments, the best you can do is send a report to the DM team about how X character is doing this and that and just... let it be. Maybe they'll get an alignment switch, maybe they won't. One way or another, smite neutral seems like a better solution.
This is akin to telling a PnP DM they can't tell a Paladin how to play their Lawful Good alignment because they can't understand the whole of that alignment. Yes you can.

"Good" is "I do things that help other people at my own cost."

Evil is "I do things that help me or my desires at the cost of others."

Neutral is "I do nice things. Sometimes. Not really often, usually only when it suits me. I don't really do evil stuff though, isn't my place to take peoples' stuff away or what not."

Lawful is "I abide a code or set of principles because without that I feel lost amidst an ocean of nonsense."

Chaos is "idk fam I do what I want without much concern for a code or what not."

So when you run across Slaver McMurderHobo goes "hey i dont like elfs n i wanna go 2 war with them cus i can and lol slaves" you can go "Hm. This guy doesn't really seem to have a code (chaotic) and is doing stuff for personal gain at the cost of others (evil)."

Maybe I'm not understanding your post or something, but it's well within our rights as players (and our characters' rights) to determine for ourselves if someone is evil or not.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:53 pm

Smite em all and let the mechanics sort out the dead.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:11 pm

Just include CN in Smite Evil. It's a stupid alignment anyways, for the reasons described above.
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by -XXX- » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:55 pm

Alignment is a dynamic stat. DMs can adjust it and probably should if they see a character consistently behaving outside of the limits of the alignment listed in the character sheet.

That being said, edgy paladins who behave like a hammer that sees nails everywhere should probably also be a subject to the aforementioned consequence.

What I'm getting at here is that when a smiter's smite fails, the reasons for it do not always have to be be that "z0mG blatant Evil McEvilpants is a cheesing with a CN alignment to avoid smite again", but there is also the possibility that the paladin actually failed to successfully identify true evil and resorted to violence regardless (in which case, merely not having that excessive DPS kicking in seems a rather mild consequence).

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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Wytchee » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:08 pm

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Iceborn
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Re: Smite Neutrals

Post by Iceborn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:16 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Iceborn wrote:Some stuff
More stuff.
Sorry, I meant to say [deleted wall of text].

To put it short: in PnP your DM is in front of you the whole time, from start to end. In Arelith, we have months worth of RP under our belt, that no DM wants to spend 2 weeks reviewing to understand why x happened when the alignment sheet says Z instead.

My take is that you should always choose what is closest and be able to reconsider if your character still qualifies for that alignment every now and then. If somebody cheeses it, well, that's just another mechanic for you. We have like 600 millions of those that anybody may cheese at any time.
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