Examine Information

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Ozzy.nl
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Ozzy.nl » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:03 pm

From a Dutch point of view that what the above women is doing is very commen. That picture is from Amsterdam.

I agree texting and driving a bike is dangerrous.

And yes stupid all around the globe ....

Kirito
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Kirito » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:10 pm

The second shot is also posed, you have no idea whether the girl can string more than two words together or has a PhD in quantum physics.

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Liareth
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Liareth » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:11 pm

Aero Silver wrote:Please check these images below and tell me if you can't deduce anything about the common sense of these two women.
Only because one is doing something silly and the other isn't. Based on appearance alone (and not the situation they are in) I would say the first girl looks more intelligent than the second - the second looks more homely and nice and inviting, whereas the first has a sharper and more focused expression. I think you were trying to make the point that the second girl looks more intelligent than the first, and that's one of the issues - it's pretty subjective. I doubt there's an actual link between how intelligent a person is and how intelligent they look, whereas there definitely -is- a link between how strong or dexterous or hardy a person is, and how they look.

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Ridiculously Circuitous Plans
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Ridiculously Circuitous Plans » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:15 pm

Honestly, I'm curious as to how one tells how dexterous a person is by sight alone. Assessing their center of gravity? Dexterity is agility, reflexes, and balance... all things that one would need to see demonstrated before making a judgement. When I see people on the street, I have no idea whether or not they are clumsy until they stumble or drop something.

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Liareth
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Liareth » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:23 pm

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote:Honestly, I'm curious as to how one tells how dexterous a person is by sight alone. Assessing their center of gravity? Dexterity is agility, reflexes, and balance... all things that one would need to see demonstrated before making a judgement. When I see people on the street, I have no idea whether or not they are clumsy until they stumble or drop something.
I suppose that's true, and the same goes for charisma - you can't exactly tell how charismatic someone is until they speak or do something - but if that's the case, then why doesn't the same rule apply to intelligence?

yellowcateyes
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Re: Examine Information

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:48 pm

There was actually a fair amount of debate about which attributes to conceal. My initial position was to hide charisma as well, but it was pointed out that doing so would remove any potential social cost to charisma dumps. There are players who do account for right-click examine stats in deciding whether they find a character convincing.

It's helpful to see right-click examine as more than just a snapshot portrait. You're actually viewing the character living and breathing in front of you. An in-person impression is much more detailed than looking at a picture.

In regard to intelligence, I do agree that it's difficult to gauge at a glance. While it's relatively easy to spot stupidity (specifically, people doing stupid things), it's far more difficult to gauge mental talent. Geniuses and savants can lurk behind social awkwardness and seemingly unfocused mannerisms.

Putting all that aside, the decision to omit intelligence came down to the desire to limit metagaming.

As pointed out, vastly different melee builds look very similar in the current system. Someone with good strength and constitution could be a barbarian, or a weapon-master, or a ranger, or something else entirely.

A high charisma character might be a sorcerer. Or they might be some kind of bard. Or they might be a paladin or a blackguard, or even a CHA-based cleric. There are many possibilities.

On the other hand, high Intelligence points only to wizard. High intelligence and a strong physical quality signifies a Spellsword (or, in rare cases, an Assassin). And if a person has few High stats when five stats are visible, it's easy to guess that they are a Wisdom-based character based on process of elimination.

Showing 4 ability scores instead of 5 makes a world of difference when it comes to trying to guess what you're dealing with, and the new system errs on the side of ambiguity.

It's still fairly easy to guess what a character is. Except that guess now has to involve observing their equipment, behavior and other aspects of their in-game play, rather than just reading their character sheet at a click. And that opens the possibility for deception and personas.
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Astral
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Astral » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 pm

Scholar Midnight wrote:
Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote:Honestly, I'm curious as to how one tells how dexterous a person is by sight alone. Assessing their center of gravity? Dexterity is agility, reflexes, and balance... all things that one would need to see demonstrated before making a judgement. When I see people on the street, I have no idea whether or not they are clumsy until they stumble or drop something.
I suppose that's true, and the same goes for charisma - you can't exactly tell how charismatic someone is until they speak or do something - but if that's the case, then why doesn't the same rule apply to intelligence?
Charismatic people objectively have some air of confidence or appeal around them. The examine shows charisma and does not show intelligence in my opinion, because you are not expected to ALWAYS put the charismatic factor within your emotes at all times where as intelligence is subject to situation and action more than charisma. Same as a dexterous person doesn't need to put the agile factor within their emotes. It's safe to assume their walking and body language are 'smooth' at all times unless emoted otherwise. Does it make any sense?
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Aero Silver
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Aero Silver » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:37 pm

Scholar Midnight wrote: I doubt there's an actual link between how intelligent a person is and how intelligent they look, whereas there definitely -is- a link between how strong or dexterous or hardy a person is, and how they look.
If they are wearing loose fitting clothes, this will hide their toned muscles. Except for bodybuilders who have sculpted muscles, people who are physically fit, like professionals wrestlers, can easily be mistaken to be overweight. So I suggest avoiding subjective opinions. Instead, we should go by what the majority of people in society would say, because society sets and dictates our opinions and tastes.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:34 am

I work in food. I can generally tell you whether or not a customer is observant or unobservant within a minute of interaction tops, usually. Same goes for their basic level of... wits, we'll call it.

Customer walks in the door; the door is marked with our hours in big, white, three inch letters and numbers printed on clear glass that is wiped clean at least a dozen times a day.

"Sorry, what are your hours?" <--- Unobservant. Maybe they were distracted, maybe they just didn't notice at all. I would argue that being unobservant OR absent-minded is a sign of a low Wisdom.

Different customer walks in, and orders an Italian Steak. By name. Proceeds to ask, "that comes with steak, right?" <-- Not very smart.

Different (and first time!) customer walks in in a suit and tie, dressed sharply, carrying a briefcase. Customer looks at the menu, orders a sandwich, asks if it comes with any sauce (fair question- it's the only thing the menu doesn't specify about that item). This results in him learning it has mayo, which he doesn't like, so it's not on his sandwich. He has correct change ready for the cashier before she gives him his total. <---- Observant and smart.

In all of these cases I was a supervisory observer, not the one interacting with the person directly. There are lots of cues, and they are all situational. I am not the most observant person in the world, myself, so I feel like if I can draw these conclusions about people's wisdom scores and intelligence scores our characters probably could, too.

I'd really like to see the other stats added back in with the mimicry system in place.
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Lorkas
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Lorkas » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:06 am

In all of these cases I was a supervisory observer, not the one interacting with the person directly. There are lots of cues, and they are all situational. I am not the most observant person in the world, myself, so I feel like if I can draw these conclusions about people's wisdom scores and intelligence scores our characters probably could, too.
And yet in every single case you mentioned, there was communication going on. Remove everything you said about anyone talking, and what conclusions do you draw from their appearance alone?

In game, if you want to know how intelligent or wise someone is, RP with them (or at least listen in on them RPing with others). If any of the above happened in game, it would be the text the character typed that gave away their INT and WIS, not their appearance alone.

Here's a study that deals with the link between how smart a person appears to be and how smart they really are when assessed. According to their results, it seems that some aspects of intelligence can be worked out based on facial features for men, but not women. The study is really limited though--it doesn't have any measure of magical aptitude, and all of the participants were humans.

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Peppermint
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Peppermint » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:05 am

The pedant in me was going to mention that study.

Yes, there is an (apparent) link between appearance and actual intelligence (in some cases).

But ultimately, it comes down to curbing metagaming. People in the real world don't boil down to a handful of archetypes. You can't typically eye a guy on the street and say, "Oh, this guy's got a PhD in psychology, minored in computer science, and currently works as a professor at a prestigious university. He's also pretty good at golf."

Under the old examine system? You totally could do that sort of thing due to a limited number of archetypes, and it was really silly.

Raw numbers lack the necessary nuance. It's better to err on the side of ambiguity here.

Trunx
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Trunx » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:36 am

Ridiculously Circuitous Plans wrote:Honestly, I'm curious as to how one tells how dexterous a person is by sight alone. Assessing their center of gravity? Dexterity is agility, reflexes, and balance... all things that one would need to see demonstrated before making a judgement. When I see people on the street, I have no idea whether or not they are clumsy until they stumble or drop something.
Dexterity does shows outwardly. Balance can be seen in the stance and how someone walks, hence the expression "walks like a dancer." There's almost no chance someone who carries themselves badly, stands on their heels, and walks in an uncoordinated manner is dexterous, unless they're intentionally hiding it. And you can tell the difference, if you know what you're looking for, between clumsy, average, and graceful, and variations thereof, not just "extremely clumsy" and "everyone else."

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Lorkas » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:22 pm

Keep in mind all the information we get now is Low, Average, and High. We can't tell how dextrous someone is, just whether or not their dexterity is something that stands out about them.

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gilescorey
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Re: Examine Information

Post by gilescorey » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:00 am

I think it's better to err on the side of vagueness, personally. Further nuance should be expressed in RP.

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Re: Examine Information

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:59 am

I like the new system a lot better.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:56 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:I like the new system a lot better.
+1
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