Examine Information

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

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Dreams
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Examine Information

Post by Dreams » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:38 am

We now see incredibly specific titles for four bits of information as below with values as (Low, Average, High). For example:

STRENGTH: High
DEXTERITY: Low
CONSTITUTION: Average
CHARISMA: Low

The new system sort of suggests 'MY STAT IS THIS' rather than previously where there was a bit more interpretation that could be used however you like in roleplay. I don't think this helps roleplay. Examinations should be subjective, because they are based on observation rather than actual fact. However, what if we could change this information to thinks that assist or are at least thematic?

e.g. Say for example we wanted to show Discipline in the examined information, it might be called 'Stance', and the values might be 'Weak', 'Sturdy', 'Solid'.

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Cortex
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Cortex » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:49 am

It's the opposite actually. Previously you could figure out someone's build or level with it.
:)

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Dreams
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Dreams » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:53 am

Right, and I agree that it was a problem. Maybe it's just the choice of language or the ability names in caps that throws me, I don't know.

IIllII
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Re: Examine Information

Post by IIllII » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:54 am

Can you bring back persuasiveness? I've always used it for RP and it's sad to see it gone.

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Iceborn
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Iceborn » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:05 am

Actually I think this should be removed entirely.

I don't see what purpose serves but making out what other characters are, and checking their discipline for KD spam.


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Re: Examine Information

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:29 am

Right-click examine has been reworked to be purposefully less detailed, omitting skills such as 'Discipline' and 'Concentration' and instead focusing on readily apparent physical stats. The feedback is also less granular, with "High," "Average" and "Low" being the only adjectives shown.

A -mimic command has been included and is presently functional despite feedback messages to the contrary. Details will be posted once some bugs and kinks have been ironed out.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:37 am

Dreams wrote:Right, and I agree that it was a problem. Maybe it's just the choice of language or the ability names in caps that throws me, I don't know.
The terminology is the same as before, except 'AGILITY' was replaced with 'DEXTERITY.' Adjectives are the same, except that some descriptors like 'Above Average,' Very High' and 'Extremely High' have been removed.

It may indeed be the all caps, or the lack of color-coding. Will look into making it more aesthetically pleasing in the future.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Examine Information

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:23 am

Good change, examining someone and seeing Discpline: Average was nothing but metagame bait.

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Re: Examine Information

Post by Intrepid42 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:12 am

Image

Astral
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Astral » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:34 am

yeah and Mimic is a thing also. So you can walk around disguise-less and lie about ONE attribute rather then all.

For example. Your rogue can mimic high str and therefore people will assume high discipline. But you don't have to mimic anything else if you don't want to.

I know that breaking disguise works on Spot check but being accurate with people attributes was always a wisdom score thing, without adding spot check. So how does it work now? Do you need spot to break Mimic or just wisdom?
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Re: Examine Information

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:33 pm

Here's how it currently works.

Right-Click Examine
-----------------

- Intelligence and all of the Skill-Based descriptors have been removed from right-click examine.
- The granularity of output has been reduced; the adjectives are limited to High, Low, and Average.
- The Wisdom-based and Bluff-based checks for inaccuracy have been removed, replaced with a mimic system (See below).

The only attributes shown are Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and Dexterity. For example:

Strength: High
Dexterity: Low
Constitution: Average
Charisma: Low


Stat Mimicry
----------------

Characters with invested ranks in Bluff or Perform can choose to modify one or more of their attribute descriptors. This is limited to one attribute per 7 invested ranks. Those who have invested 28 ranks can attempt to affect a different description for all four displayed attributes. The command works as follows:

-mimic [Attribute] [Hi/Lo/Av/St]

[Attribute] can be STR (Strength), DEX (Dexterity), CON (Constitution), or CHA (Charisma).
[Hi/Lo/Av/St] refers to whether you want to mimic a High, Low, or Average value in the chosen attribute. 'St,' or Stop, ceases mimicry for that attribute.

When an onlooker views a character trying to mimic a different attribute, an invisible opposed roll will occur testing the higher of the onlooker's Spot or Search versus the higher of the mimic's Bluff or Perform. If the onlooker wins the roll, they will see the mimic's true attribute descriptors. Otherwise, they will see the adjectives the mimic has chosen.

Notes:
- Because of the mimicry system, attribute descriptors will now be visible regardless of -disguise state.
- Attribute descriptors will also now be visible on polymorphed individuals.
- The maximum number of mimicked attributes is based on the total combined invested ranks of Bluff and Perform. Conceivably, a character can start mimicking different values for all four visible attributes as early as level 11. Regardless, the opposed skill check against an onlooker will only use the highest of Bluff or Perform.
- Mimic roll results will persist for one hour before the opposed skill check can be rolled again.


Known issues:
  • The game will tell you that -mimic is an invalid command. The game is lying to you. Please ignore this lie until it goes away. Fixed.
  • You may have noticed entire description listings of 'Unknown.' Presently, this is happening because the Mimic roll is being resolved in favor of the creature being observed but the observed creature has not used the mimic command to specify adjectives. This will be fixed next reset, with Unknown replaced with the actual attribute descriptors when the Mimic command is inactive. Fixed.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:43 pm

The listed 'known issues' have been fixed as of last reset.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by JediMindTrix » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:20 pm

Intrepid42 wrote:Image
amazing

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Eters
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Eters » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:02 am

I believe the current system is more fair, and honestly makes more sense, yes, by looking at someone you could guess if they're strong, if they have endurance, if they're dexterous and if they're "charismatic" , but things like intimidation (it's subjective, somethings are intimidating to some people, those same things aren't intimidating to others) , someone's intelligence, their ability to persuade, their discipline, those were mostly used to guess someone's level and build on an OOC level.

Which caused an unfair advantage, and even in some cases, affects the character's RP.

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:09 am

IIllII wrote:Can you bring back persuasiveness? I've always used it for RP and it's sad to see it gone.
I think it's a weird double-edged sword. It's a great thing to have when it's positive. When someone's Persuade is 'High', you take it into consideration, and it can be great for RP.

However, what happens when you come across a villain with Intimidation that is 'Low'? Aka, every non-barbarian character?

It's difficult, because it's great when it a positive skill, but it's awkward when it's negative.

I'd love to see Intimidate and Persuade return, but they are only triggered when they have enough ranks to be seen as "High." Then you don't get what I think was the previous downside.
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Re: Examine Information

Post by RedGiant » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:47 am

What about "seers" i.e. epic divination focus?

It would be cool if they could still see extended information. It would also give PCs more of a reason to consult them.
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Ironfoot
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Ironfoot » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:03 am

RedGiant wrote:What about "seers" i.e. epic divination focus?

It would be cool if they could still see extended information. It would also give PCs more of a reason to consult them.
This.

MoreThanThree
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Re: Examine Information

Post by MoreThanThree » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:55 pm

Divination already has that.
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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:28 am

Dreams wrote:We now see incredibly specific titles for four bits of information as below with values as (Low, Average, High). For example:

STRENGTH: High
DEXTERITY: Low
CONSTITUTION: Average
CHARISMA: Low
What you saw before was actually far more specific.

Under the current system, you get 4 attributes, basically divided into Below 10/10-15/16+

Under the old system, you got 5 attributes (because there wasn't a player that didn't know that physique = strength, agility = dex , healthiness = con, astuteness = int, etc), and data was granulated enough to tell specific mod bands:

Below 6/6-7/8-9/10-11/12-13/14-15/16-17/18+

This let you differentiate readily between builds. A barbarian looked different on examine than a WM, which in turn looked different from a PM, which in turn looked different from a battlecleric.

And on top of that, you had a big old "Am I a free PvP kill?" flag in the discipline box, plus "Do you bother taunting me?" in the concentration box. All of which was reliably enough gathered to be counted on to a high degree of confidence. Due to the scaling of the system, in which accuracy was a loose combination of spot + hit dice vs bluff, getting a good read was easy with minimal spot investment by the time you were in epics, and the offset was random. One important side effect of the randomization was that a character with poor discipline, even if they had lots of bluff to throw some doubt on it, was likely only to move their disc representation from "poor" to "average", "above average", or "high", but every PvP-worthy level of discipline would peg, without fail, as "extremely high". Savvy players knew this, and understood that a character with a decent charisma read and a discipline of less-than-extremely-high was almost certainly a 0-disc KD magnet.

Compare with the current system, under which skill readings have been ruthlessly purged, and the brackets blurred to <10/10-11/>11. Here, an unbuffed strength ranger, a barbarian, and a WM will display exactly the same information. Above average str/con, average dex, below average cha. And there is room to expressly shift one or more of the reads in either direction with -mimic.


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Aero Silver
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Aero Silver » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:01 am

Why was Intelligence removed? In real life, people can easily surmise someone's intelligence. A bright student with sharp eyes versus a grinning simpleton with dull eyes and everything in between.

I agree that Wisdom should not be shown, because we can't tell that a person is a fool until they open their mouth to speak.

I just don't understand the purpose of hiding the Intelligence.
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.

Nitro
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Nitro » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:44 am

So, you mean to say that you could, at a glance, tell two average joe strangers apart just by their intellect?

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Lorkas » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Teacher here. Usually the way I distinguish students academically is communicating with them, not by looking at them.

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Zavandar
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Zavandar » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:52 pm

Image
Intelligence is too important

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Aero Silver
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Aero Silver » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Please check these images below and tell me if you can't deduce anything about the common sense of these two women.

Image
Image
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.

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Lorkas
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Re: Examine Information

Post by Lorkas » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:43 pm

The first woman is doing something stupid. If a character in game is doing something stupid, feel free to draw conclusions from that.

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