The Minogon Plant

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Iceborn
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The Minogon Plant

Post by Iceborn » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:04 am

Next in my list of "interesting places that I hate to hate to run" is the Minogon Plant.

This place is... simple, more simple than it looks at first glance. It's a dungeon that is dependent on mob drops and puzzle-solving to progress through that concludes with an artifact chest...
And I have a lot of beef with it.


So to start with the mobs, that are separated in two groups:

:arrow: Minogons (and minotaurs)
The minogons spawn in about 5 different breeds. They have interesting, obvious abilities, are well balanced, acceptable experience rate and drop a lot of junk, that if you have a STR character in the party willing to collect and sell the scraps, may be a lot of gold.

These are the epitome of good design to me. How to take the same mob and turn it into five interesting variations.

Also minotaurs. They are there, in a single area. Something like raw minogons without the actual abilities but higher offensive potential.

:arrow: Artificers

These. These are where things start to go south in the plant.
Artificers are auto-casting, heavy-warding, IGSM-spamming, Acid-sheathed wizards with true seeing. And they always have at least one Morderkainen Disjunction ready - usually, the first thing that they cast offensively.

Artificers come in only two variants. Artificers and Aritificer Leaders - the leaders being basically the same but in steroids.

In the 2/3 areas that you can freely navigate when you first enter the plant, artificers are a rare spawns. In fact, they may not spawn at all unless you have at least one character at level 30 in your party. This means they are easier to deal with at first, but: Problem.
When you originally enter the plant, it is a null-magic area (that doesn't affect the artificers, so bless you for trying to dispel their acid sheathes in vain).

Battle-casters of most sorts will find themselves mostly starting to hate life from this point. Personally I'm not sure if I'm particularly unlucky, or if the artificers have School Focus: Abjuration feats.

The deeper you get into the place, the more the minogons become a secondary spawn and the artificers, the primary. But at least, one you start going deeper you can actually breach their acid sheathes.

:arrow: The puzzles
Getting started with the puzzles has one mayor problem:
You need two items to start opening way into the Minogon Plant, that are dropped by the artificers respectively. This means that if no artificer spawns at all, you simply cannot advance further initially.

But in the case you are less unlucky, you may get at least a set to disable the antimagic field and the place becomes less of a chore to deal with. Hurray! Provided you are lucky enough to amass enough discs to get through, you'll slowly advance through the back and forth of puzzles. (Oh, and make sure you don't stack the discs, or you may lose your whole stack in a single use, hee-hee)

Most of them are somewhat straight-forward.
There is a room that only favors characters with at least 20 base intelligence (and only slightly), and strips everybody else of their buffs (hi forced rest)
There is a room that favors stealther (in fact, using one may be the only way to get through).
It's generally just a back-and-forth of looking information and codes and figuring where to go next.

Perhaps the balista room holds most of my beef. This room seems to randomly shoot the people that try to cross the bridge with completely unavoidable, unsavable, unmitigable bolts. There is only one kind of character that can cross through without taking any harm...
I'm okay with the room requiring specific skillsets to have its defenses overridden. I'm not okay with that being only one set of abilities, with the bolts being completely ungodly and absolute as they are, or with the fact that in a world so full of magic and methods, there's no real other way to deal with this room but run through (and get torn open in the process) or have that kind of character.

And about the last puzzle/code:
I spent nearly 2 years and the lifetime of 3 characters taken to level 30 before I finally got the answer to the last code. Another little hint here would be welcomed.


:arrow: Conclusion and reward:
Even if you were to run exactly with a group that knows exactly what it is doing with the proper level set (mostly, high epic), this is a place that takes too long to run, which is still mostly dependent of mob spawns at first.

So let's say that you actually go through all the plant in the glorious effort. What's your reward:
One rich ore vein.
One rare gem deposit
One artifact chest
Oh yes, the minogon plant has an arty chest!
With a lock at DC 80, that in contrast to any other chest in the game and the spell description, cannot be opened with a Knock spell.

This is like dropping quicksilver in an open wound.

A lock at DC 80 means that you need absolutely a dedicated rogue.
That is to say:
33 open lock ranks,
43 ESF feat
56 dexterity
60 open lock daggers
80 with the open lock roll.
Or a few variations of skills, maybe with more dex, more gear and a Rogue's Cunning book

This is one of the hardest-to-reach artifact chests in the server, and it's unbashable and impossible to open any other way.

There's not a single other chest in the whole dungeon. There's no more resources than the above-mentioned vein. This is flatly one of the most painful places to visit in my experience. And short of coming to see it once in a RP-heavy trip, there is absolutely no other reason I would take a party through the pain that is this whole dungeon.


Not to mention, there's no portal out of the place. There -is- a portal out, but it leaves you within the same dungeon at best, still two maps away from the exit.
Last edited by Iceborn on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dunshine
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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Dunshine » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:57 am

Iceborn wrote: This is one of the hardest-to-reach artifact chests in the server, and it's unbashable and impossible to open any other way.
Not ... true

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:12 am

I have been in there once with my characters....honestly...wont bother running it, too tedious, null magic makes it honestly not worth going into and by the sounds of it, it doesnt get any better.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Lorkas » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:04 am

It's pretty great for kensai. I really like the dungeon as an experience, and trying to work out how everything works was a great experience for me.

My main criticism would be that the glass is too hard to get when you don't already have one, and trivial to get once you do have one. It would be better if it were more possible to get one without having one already.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by greatfanfare » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:26 am

So this is why in any party of epics I've been in the many years playing here never, no one, has ever suggested "lets go in there to find who is making these minogons"


Makes sense.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Iceborn » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:07 pm

Dunshine wrote:
Iceborn wrote: This is one of the hardest-to-reach artifact chests in the server, and it's unbashable and impossible to open any other way.
Not ... true
We didn't find any other way to open it, and honestly, if a completely ordinary-looking chest with no special description is immune to all but one element, I don't think I'm likely to actually consider rouletting through the many ways to open it.
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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:43 pm

Maybe there is an artefact shrine in da _House. Try reaching that one, ha! :lol:

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Your Impotent Gods » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:48 pm

Oh, please! I wanted to explore this place on an old character but nobody ever wanted to go inside for any longer than the handful of minutes it took to clear out the first floor or so!

Make this more accessible, if at all possible.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Cortex » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:50 pm

My only beef is the bridge with the ballistas. Everything else has been cool to me, maybe except the acid sheath mages...
:)

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:55 pm

Well, the mages follow the same template as the majority of the endgame caster mobs:

1) autocast haste + acid sheath + spell mantle + DR ward
2) open up with mord
3) follow up with mass direct dmg AoEs (at least the Artificers alternate between Meteor Swarm, missile swarms and Horrid wilting, instead of just spamming Meteor Swarms)
4) obligatory Auto Quicken III to make them immune to counterspelling while the autocast haste lasts


Also... there is this observation dome that allows you to peek into various levels of the dungeon, but since it uses the scrying script, what it really does is essentially stripping you off all the wards in the very last room just before the final boss encounter.
Considering how easy it can be to missclick on the windows...

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:47 pm

-XXX- wrote: 4) obligatory Auto Quicken III to make them immune to counterspelling while the autocast haste lasts
This isn't how counterspelling works.
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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by -XXX- » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:22 pm

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Automatic_quicken_spell Well, partially it is. With the exception that being hasted as a counterspeller does not seem to help (I think that we have been playing with this in the arcane tower arena some time ago and the findings were that a hasted auto quicken caster trumps a hasted counterspeller despite what the wiki says). I can try checking this some more, it is quite possible that I am not interpreting it correctly as is.
It is also possible that the Artificers along with many other caster spawns have their spells assigned as a monster ability (which can not be counterspelled at all). Bottom line, these creeps have a way around counterspelling, which is very annoying.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Mythical » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:56 pm

I personally loved this dungeon though at the time I played one of the toons who could actually cross through the ballista room without getting shot. I thought it was a lot of fun and enjoyed being actually 'needed' for something. The only changes I would agree with would be making the glass a bit less difficult to get as now it can take ten different trips to find one and gather enough discs to get started, and perhaps a small hint to that last code.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Sockss » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:20 pm

It's probably the best dungeon on Arelith IMO.

There's different mechanics, changing environments, good mob density and really good XP.

I wouldn't say it was difficult, though (I know you can solo the place from ~16+ on an SD). If you spawn an artificer before you get the anti-magic down you just run around breaking LoS until his Mestil's expires.

Though, I entirely agree the arte chest should be changed.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by CookieMonster » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:01 pm

I love the Minagon Factory as a dungeon.

But, I have had a small army destroy it multiple times to simply be unable to figure out the last clue.. A bit heartbreaking which is the main reason I tend to avoid it now, simply because I have found it impossible to physically complete the dungeon.
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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Mythical » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:14 pm

Taking away one of the few if only artefact chests that you need a rogue for is, to me, sad. There are a thousand threads about rogues needing love, that they are difficult to lvl, and that there is no real good reason to be heavy in them. This dungeon is one of those.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:25 pm

Some content should be less approachable, there's no need to make everything 'casual.'
\

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Cortex » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:38 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Some content should be less approachable, there's no need to make everything 'casual.'
I very much agree with this, and have taken this approach when handling dungeon monsters. Some dungeons are meant to be tough and rewarding, while others are easier to do.
:)

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Iceborn » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:24 pm

I'm perfectly okay with some places being more punishing than others, but, seriously:
-XXX- wrote:Well, the mages follow the same template as the majority of the endgame caster mobs:

1) autocast haste + acid sheath + spell mantle + DR ward
2) open up with mord
3) follow up with mass direct dmg AoEs (at least the Artificers alternate between Meteor Swarm, missile swarms and Horrid wilting, instead of just spamming Meteor Swarms)
4) obligatory Auto Quicken III to make them immune to counterspelling while the autocast haste lasts
This seems like too much to deal with for an arti chest that, contrary to all other artifact chests, has an insane open lock DC that cannot be bypassed.

I just don't find the place rewarding at all, even if we had a rogue to deal with most of the content.
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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:39 pm

Then I would propose instead adding a second chest, or some other large payoff, so the super hard areas are more tempting to do. So the question "why is this so hard and why does it demand a cleric wizard rogue and fighter? " has an easy answer, "better loot." Then more areas can be added with huge difficulty spikes with the promise of better rewards.

Give the hardcore have more of a reason to deal with the high difficulty areas.

But I do think auto quicken 3 is a bad enemy feat, as it stops any attempt at interrupting casting. A better change would be to stop at auto quicken 2 so spells 1-6 can be immune and not counter spellable or interruptible, but 7-9 can still be. Thereby adding some strategy to the difficulty as opposed to raw brute force difficulty.
\

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Twily » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:01 am

Just to throw out there: I love this dungeon almost as is, and it actually is in the top spot as my favorite dungeon to go in, whether in a party or solo. A giant kudos to whoever designed it!!

If I had to offer critiques:
1) Turning the mages into wizards instead of sorcerers, so that the spells they cast can be more controlled. If they are wizard, removing a cast of IGMS and/or Horrid Wilting as they cast it a lot, back to back no less. They're not bad on their own, but in places like the mind-melter room, you're often being bombarded by two or even three at a time. That combined with the unavoidable stun of the mind-melter makes it one of the deadliest maps I've ever encountered.
(I suspect they're sorcerer base due to spamming the same obnoxious spells back to back, much like the Frost Giant Mages, old Talassian Mages, Troll Shamans, etc)
2) Adding a VERY subtle hint for the last clue.
3) Reducing the speed of the mind melter. I'm fine with it bypassing Mind Immunity even if that is a bit strange, but as is it fires rather rapidly, and has killed me quite a few times(given the crazy mages in the middle). The speed of it also makes it difficult to actually use the console to turn it off, given that it interrupts dialogue and makes you wait due to being in combat before you can re-open the dialogue. (a half a round longer inbetween would be perfect)
And this one could be classified as a bug:
4) Adding a lever to open the Minotaur Lightning Cage from the inside. If a server reset/crash occurs while in the cage, there's no way to get back without makesafe or party nudging through the wall.

I've spent quite a while trying to figure out the last puzzle(given that it's my favorite dungeon), and despite one or two things slightly suggesting what one needs to find, I've never managed to find any proper lead.


PS: Please don't nerf the Giant Prototype one! I love how ludicrously strong he is, and he's easily skippable. (although increasing his loot drop could be nice)
Last edited by Twily on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Cortex » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:05 am

only cool kids figure out the last puzzle

Probably the longest lasting secret in Arelith.
:)

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:28 am

I'd say the dungeon is representative of the trend towards making things way more difficult without increasing the rewards proportionately.

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by Dunshine » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:38 am

The thing about the Plant is there are a lot of different opinions out there on it, ranging from people telling me it's the best dungeon of all NWN servers they've ever seen, to people that just hate it. And that's perfectly fine. Not every dungeon suits the same playstyle.

I've designed this dungeon in a way that it requires mutiple type of characters AND multiple visits. The entire idea is that this isn't a dungeon where you just grab 5 level 30 powerbuilds, go in, and wrap it up. It's designed to be a real challenge, both by the puzzles that need to be solved, and by the numerous dangerous features installed in it, which requires figuring out the right tactics to deal with them. Even some of the hints out there are designed to be easier to solve after mutliple visits.
And you know what, based on the feedback, even from the ones complaining, I think it does exactly that. It takes people a long time to figure it all out, the fact that the end puzzle even after all these years is still not common knowledge, makes me very happy really.

Now let me address some of the points made in this thread:

- Artificers being bad-asses. That's just true. I based them on the Beholder Mages, which I've died to myself frequently in the past. This works as intended.

- Needing a magnifying glass dropped, is one of those things that may need you to re-visit the dungeon. I understand it can be frustrating, but it really promotes re-visits, or gathering other people to go along with you who already have one.

- The Ballista's, it's simply not true that only 1 type of character can get past them. There are around 9 different classes who would be able to do this. Also there are other tactics out there available for EVERYONE to get past it. You 'just' have to figure them out. And there is a damage reduction possible for them, but not easily, and not for everyone.

- The Brainflusher, it's dangerous and favors highly intelligent creatures yes. There is a way to make it easier for you though. Even so, I'll lower the frequency of it based on Twily's feedback, sounds fair enough to me.

- The last puzzle, it HAS a hint! And really, it's working out just the way I hoped it would. A very hard, but solveable puzzle, promoting multiple visits to figure it all out.

- Reward, or lack there of. Let me start by stating the artifact chest can be opened by anyone who can open any other artifact chest on the server. You just need to figure out how first.

Another thing I would really hope for, is that finishing this dungeon is a reward in itself and a unique experience for people. It's filled with unique mobs, some with scripted abilties, unique effects, has a great theme, and is filled with puzzles and unique mechanical challenges. That should count for something! Again I totally understand this is not for all types of players, and some of you don't consider this as a reward or fun at all, which is fine.
That said, I do think this dungeon could use some additional goodies. So I'll likely spice the rewards up a bit soon.

Final note, considering the amount of time it took me to make this dungeon, you lot should just suck it up and spent an equal amount of time to finish it! There. 8-)

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Re: The Minogon Plant

Post by gilescorey » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:30 am

Invader_Nym wrote:I'd say the dungeon is representative of the trend towards making things way more difficult without increasing the rewards proportionately.
That dungeon hasn't been changed for years, though.

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