Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

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RedGiant
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Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by RedGiant » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:58 am

Well, you knew this was coming...from me.

This is my remarkably calm response to the change.

1) How stable is this change? Given that it fails to please our benevolent Overlord Irongron...

2) If this is semi-stable, will the staff consider rebuilds? I would even considering dumping the feat for a pure druid to tell the truth.

3) I love that bronze dragons are possible, but not at the price of blue. Would the staff maybe consider the many ancient requests to make them alignment based? Or...ooh ooh...idea forming... perhaps tie alternate shapes to the -stream system? That would be way cool. More choices would take some of the sting away from this, giving wider utility and RP options. 9 dragons aren't too many to build!


4) Also...since I was good and didn't implode over this, can I still ask for a respect for all in the craft points department? All my characters a broke'd.
Last edited by RedGiant on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

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RedGiant
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Re: Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by RedGiant » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:27 am

Update:
RedGiant wrote: 1) How stable is this change? Given that it fails to please our benevolent Overlord Irongron...

2) If this is semi-stable, will the staff consider rebuilds? I would even considering dumping the feat for a pure druid to tell the truth.
Question 2 answered at least in theory. And KUDOS to the staff for the new policy. The nod to player investment is MUCH appreciated!
RedGiant wrote: 3) I love that bronze dragons are possible, but not at the price of blue. Would the staff maybe consider the many ancient requests to make them alignment based? Or...ooh ooh...idea forming... perhaps tie alternate shapes to the -stream system? That would be way cool. More choices would take some of the sting away from this, giving wider utility and RP options. 9 dragons aren't too many to build!

4) Also...since I was good and didn't implode over this, can I still ask for a respect for all in the craft points department? All my characters a broke'd.
Will take #4 to the suggestion forums.
Last edited by RedGiant on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

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Cortex
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Re: Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:30 am

I may or not expand the options available with a function similar to stream in the future.
:)

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RedGiant
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Re: Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by RedGiant » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:17 am

Awesome.

Moving my continued questions and concerns here from the "nerf" thread, since its too cluttered for my brain.

After letting this stew a day further, I do have some remaining questions / concerns. Those that are left mostly concern the druid class in general and the synergy with monk. (Many on the forums poo-poo'ed this combination, yet actually LN is fine RP for a druid (rigid druidic oaths) and Monk a naturally complementary class (contemplative warriors using their bodies as weapons).)

I see three main questions / concerns.

1) Pure Druids are arguably better in almost every way at fighting than a Druid/Monk dip.
Instead of making casting druids attractive in themselves, their 28th lvl perk really just gives them some of the cookies from the monk druid synergy (free KD, vastly superior shaping potential, etc.) without any of the sacrifice monk dips had to make to get that good (i.e. loss of animal companion potential, lost epic druid feats, caster level issues, etc.).

2) Monk Druid synergy is either impossible (monolith) or arbitrarily ruined on some top tier shapes (dragons)...but not others (wild shape, totem shape, elemental shape, and shape change).

3) The above creates a new class of winners and losers. Now, arguably most other classes, with even worse RP potential, create the new favorable synergy. For example, any high AB class taken pre-twenty is the way to boost discipline and APR. Arguably, Barbarian is one of the best (mechanically and for RP), but things quickly devolve from there. Fighter, PDK, CoT, and yes even BlackGuard, all can do wondrous things if built for. Yes, there is always Ranger, but almost every other single class I mentioned will do better if you are building for shape-changing.

Druidic multi-classing will continue, but much of this seems worse. Is there no way to preserve the monk synergy, or at least it allow to count for something in the new shapes?
The GrumpyCat wrote:I CLICK THE HOSTIBLE BUTTON NOW U ARE DED!
Irongron wrote:The slaughter, i am afraid, will not abate.

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Cortex
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Re: Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:34 am

Druid/monk still has merit for AC outside shifting, discipline, and tumble. It's not mediocre or inferior by any means.
:)

hoshi
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Re: Dragon Shape Questions and Ideas

Post by hoshi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:51 am

Cortex posted while I was typing this up, but I decided to expand on that a little.

In PvP a pure druid cannot afford to be in caster form unless they're at medium+ range from any KDers including summons. They may be superior casters but they lack supporting defenses to exploit that.

Even something as simple as Nature's Balance (breach)->Harm spam, Vine Mine(camo) for HIPs so you can strike them while they're locked into using that True Seeing scroll, forcing your enemies to fight on Grease (which probably has a higher chance to successfully KD the average PC than a monolith earth does) are basically tactics the pure druid cannot employ unless the enemy is asleep at the wheel. And a pure druid that is sucker punched is dead while the druid/monk at least has a fighting chance of escape or victory.

A pure druid is basically forced to play in kensai mode in PvP while the druid/monk (or druid/anything with discipline) has full access to their spellcasting because they're unlikely to be CCed from full health to dead with knockdown.

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