Dragon Shaper Nerf Discussion

[Miskol]

The base damage dice is actually 1d6 from magic stuff, and then 1d8 or 1d10 extra on top of STR, dependant on shape. I should have included that in the above, they do not have their weapons equipped. Which in turn, gets them more AB too if I'm not mistaken!

I assume you play a dragonshaper, so you could always post the in game stats for us all to see without the hassle of cardbox test servers.

As requested, Cortex. In game screenshot of shape change. Have not fully upgraded to 30, yet. Waiting for the 2da fix.



The stats I got off my previous claim was from loading a test character to plan out my build on the PGCC.

[Iceborn]

16 pre-epic BAB + haste potion.

[Cortex]

That is shapechange, I thought you'd still have Dragonshape.

[yellowcateyes]

You can get 5 APR as a dragonshaper?

Using the spell Shapechange and having monk AB progression, yes.

Or having 4 high BAB levels pre-epic and using Haste.

[gilescorey]

[Nemain]

45 AC won't allow for much survival... How do the breath weapons fare? Do Dragon-shapers see some use from them, at least?

[yellowcateyes]

45 is a good base value. You can actually increase that substantially via buffs.

[Miskol]

That is shapechange, I thought you'd still have Dragonshape.

No. I cannot select it until it is fixed.

[Wytchee]

Slightly back on topic, while it's now too late and I'm beating a dead dragon here...

It would have been a cool idea to not have nerfed Dragonshape's defenses so significantly (but still to some degree), but rather to have lowered its duration to 2 rounds/level, made it cost 5 piety, and reduced its use to once/day.

I don't know if it would have even been possible, but this would have brought it in line with EDK as a "boss fight" mechanic and removed the ability of Dragonshapers to clear entire dungeons effortlessly.

But of course it would still make them quite overpowered in PvP.

IDK just sharing a thought I had.

[Sockss]

I'm beating a dead dragon here...

+1

[SwampFoot]

I watched a Bear Totem Druid wreck high level content without ever once using dragonshape. And no monk levels. Honestly the only thing I've ever seen DS used for consistently is for tanking Abazuur and wrecking Baator areas when they were still a constant spawn playground for high level grinding.

And PvP. In which case I've always felt a LN druid is a bit out of place shifting into a dragon for the purpose of wrecking PC armies in a settlement war. Go protect the forest from the war's expansion. Leave the settlements to burn themselves to the ground.

I think the DS nerf-bat treatment will eventually see more forest RP from druids now that they are not the de-facto big gun in faction wars.

[Miskol]

45 is a good base value. You can actually increase that substantially via buffs.

45 is good in that it brings it to par with well built 30 melees. 3 APR makes it subpar again.

[yellowcateyes]

45 is a good base value. You can actually increase that substantially via buffs.

45 is good in that it brings it to par with well build 30 melees. 3 APR makes it subpar again.

You're not restricted to 3APR though.

[Miskol]

45 is a good base value. You can actually increase that substantially via buffs.

45 is good in that it brings it to par with well build 30 melees. 3 APR makes it subpar again.

You're not restricted to 3APR though.

No, a fighter with 4 APR isn't restricted to 4 either.

[Cortex]

That's also excluding Armor Skin, Tumble (cross classed is still 3), buffs, expertise, etc.

And since I'm a god damn moron who didn't include the weapons during that screenshot, they probably get 50 and 45 max AB instead.

Anyway, you can get 4 APR by taking 4 ranger pre-epic levels or something and doing 25/5.

[yellowcateyes]

No, a fighter with 4 APR isn't restricted to 4 either.

You're missing the point. You have 3APR because of the way you built.

But a Druid with, say, 4 levels of Ranger pre-epic can get 4 APR on Dragonshape, 5 with Haste. It's down to your BAB, with monk UBAB no longer relevant.

[Miskol]

Really community, if you haven't figured it out by now, all I'm arguing for is one more APR to make them on par with a standard melee build. Dragon shape already gets the misfortune of losing all of its DR, and much of its AC. In addition the model is so big you need NPCs to put down "Wide Load Ahead" signs. On top of that you cannot use scrolls, wands, nor cast while shape shifted. You are extremely vulnerable outside of it, and the wind up time to actually shifting is dangerous on its own right. Finally in a fight situation it's not as if you could flee unlike most other classes. Getting out of dragon shape midfight is effectively a death sentence.

[gilescorey]

Standard melee builds don't get 9th level spellcasting and epic spells, dude.

[yellowcateyes]

But you can get 4 APR. The same way every other character does:

Having 16+ BAB before 20.

[Miskol]

Standard melee builds don't get 9th level spellcasting and epic spells, dude.

What are battle clerics?

[Scurvy Cur]

Usually worse spellcasters than druids, on account of never going for more than 20 wisdom and the necessity of gearing for str/con to get the kind of numbers you see.

[Trunx]

Standard melee builds don't get 9th level spellcasting and epic spells, dude.

What are battle clerics?

Dispel baits.

And since I'm a god damn moron who didn't include the weapons during that screenshot, they probably get 50 and 45 max AB instead.

How does the DS AB interact with the +20 AB cap? If Red Dragon gets 50 AB without any soft strength bonus and as a pure druid, you're probably looking at something like 61 AB on your character sheet with +12 strength, +2 wilderness bonus and +BAB from ranger.

[Miskol]

Yes but if you're in dragonshape, you're not really casting any nonepic spells now are you?

[Cortex]

Standard melee builds don't get 9th level spellcasting and epic spells, dude.

What are battle clerics?

Dispel baits.

And since I'm a god damn moron who didn't include the weapons during that screenshot, they probably get 50 and 45 max AB instead.

How does the DS AB interact with the +20 AB cap? If Red Dragon gets 50 AB without any soft strength bonus and as a pure druid, you're probably looking at something like 61 AB on your character sheet with +12 strength, +2 wilderness bonus and +BAB from ranger.

In the screen shot they already have the +2 wilderness bonus.
Red gets +5 AB from their magic staff, green/bronze gets +4, both that should apply toward the +20 AB cap. So they'd get up to 49 AB if they took 4 1:1 BAB levels pre-epic, 55 with max STR, 57 in wilderness.

[Sockss]

You'd probably have to play a 'druid with dragonshape' as oppose to a dragonshaper now.