Dragon Shaper Nerf Discussion

[Scurvy Cur]

Someone has never heard of flexibility, apparently. That's fine though.

My real, burning question is:

How has this nerf deleteriously impacted your LN Aurilite Drow RP?

[Miskol]

In the screen shot they already have the +2 wilderness bonus.
Red gets +5 AB from their magic staff, green/bronze gets +4, both that should apply toward the +20 AB cap. So they'd get up to 49 AB if they took 4 1:1 BAB levels pre-epic, 55 with max STR, 57 in wilderness.

Could we also get some exact details on how the bronze dragon breath attack will work?

[Miskol]

Someone has never heard of flexibility, apparently. That's fine though.

My real, burning question is:

How has this nerf deleteriously impacted your LN Aurilite Drow RP?

Im sad at the loss of the blue dragon, but I'm not rolling because of the change.

[One Two Three Five]

You'd probably have to play a 'druid with dragonshape' as oppose to a dragonshaper now.

This, honestly. And it opens up druids as a design space without worrying about what druid/monk DSers will do with any random buff to druid capabilities.

[Nitro]

I think the nerf was definitely warranted, I'm just worried that it sets a weird precedent for finding out class information. It's entirely possible for new players to roll up a druid/monk, go through their entire leveling process happily thinking their nifty monk AC will apply to all shapes only to find out that dragonshape is the one exception. And it's not like any of the numerous spell changes that you can just reevaluate when to cast, but an epic feat with significant changes and significant requirements to even access it.

And I certainly hope that you won't have to download a file to override the requirements properly, because then we end up in a weird pseudo-hak situation where some people have it and some don't, and perhaps aren't even aware of the existence of the override because they don't want to spend a hefty time going over the changes to every class.

[Cortex]

There is already a solution in the works that won't require any override.

[Diegovog]

Wow dshape is so so much worse now.

[BegoneThoth]

I wouldn't say 'worse' as much as 'gone.'

It's also going through another overhaul apparently so hold onto your builds.

[High Primate]

The real reasons for nerfing DSers, I take it, is not that they are mechanically broken, since they can be reliably beaten by some other builds. It was that from a roleplay perspective they were cheesy. I wonder if the class can be made a bit stronger than what this update provides, then, without the cheese. The solution (IMO) seemed to be removing the need for Monk/CoT levels. The ease of getting dragonshape now, of course, means not making the feat as powerful now as it was then. The question is, "How much less powerful?" I think this update is aiming for the right target, but might simply missed the mark by taking the depowerment a bit too far. So I'd be in favor of updates scaling the feat's power up to respectable but reasonable levels.

[Jack Oat]

hmmm

[Cortex]

Pasting from other thread:

After some tinkering, assuming I did it correctly without the use of a bad cardbox test server.

Red can get 55 AB and 67 AC, while Bronze can get 51 AB and 69 AC, both without expertise.

Green has the least AC at 65, but instead gets immunity to acid (so it can ignore acid sheath), 3d6 sneak, and 12 hide/MS, serving more of an utility role as opposed to fighting head on. Also the same AB as Bronze.

The above stats were obtained using:
Max Bulls
Max Cats
STR Skleen
Barkskin
Haste
+3 Armor item
+6 Tumble AC, detract 3 if cross classed.

Red also has +5 DR penetration, while the other two have +4.

[Voidhawk]

I welcome this update, ecxept for the true seeing aspect, I would rather have less mechanical power and more rp potential from the shape. If anyone needed to loose true seeing it's the bat totem.

without true seeing, it just doesn't feel like a dragon. True seeing is what gives you the dragons senses, like scent, better hearing. it allows you to better roleplay an actual dragon. Pull the claws and teeth by all means, but leave the soul of the dragon feeling.

[Cortex]

If anyone needed to loose true seeing it's the bat totem.

[Peppermint]

Ah, forgot about bat totem. Thanks for the reminder.

[BegoneThoth]

without true seeing, it just doesn't feel like a dragon. True seeing is what gives you the dragons senses, like scent, better hearing. it allows you to better roleplay an actual dragon.

You're a druid not a dragon.

[xitonnn]

Pasting from other thread:

After some tinkering, assuming I did it correctly without the use of a bad cardbox test server.

Red can get 55 AB and 67 AC, while Bronze can get 51 AB and 69 AC, both without expertise.

Green has the least AC at 65, but instead gets immunity to acid (so it can ignore acid sheath), 3d6 sneak, and 12 hide/MS, serving more of an utility role as opposed to fighting head on. Also the same AB as Bronze.

The above stats were obtained using:
Max Bulls
Max Cats
STR Skleen
Barkskin
Haste
+3 Armor item
+6 Tumble AC, detract 3 if cross classed.

Red also has +5 DR penetration, while the other two have +4.

With how many attacks? without haste now (as you're not always playing with a haste caster)? can this be alittle buffed? even at the expense of other nerfs. It just feels so ughdsdausdfs

[BegoneThoth]

You can still get more attacks by going a full bab class pre epic.

A dragon shape dedicated build is likely going to do just that and snag edr 3.

[Sockss]

[Cortex]

You can still get more attacks by going a full bab class pre epic.

A dragon shape dedicated build is likely going to do just that and snag edr 3.

Sounds difficult to do, you need base 25 WIS and 21 CON. You'd need a greater award for planetouched or a +2 CON race I think.

[BegoneThoth]

As you know the problem with dragon shape is saves, but you also need +2 con? Go Dwarf.

Free +2 con, free +2 unisaves vs spells. Very, very powerful.

[Hunter548]

I have created an arelith meme

This is the happiest day of my life

[gilescorey]

I have created an arelith meme

This is the happiest day of my life

what have we done

[Cortex]

Answering based on a PM: Bronze dragon breath duration.

Duration: Rounds equal to WIS modifier+d3

[Wytchee]

You're a druid not a dragon.

You can't define me. You're not even my real dad!

[BegoneThoth]

Sorry for assuming your preferred creature type