Dragon Shaper Nerf Discussion

[Miskol]

So...someone correct me if I'm wrong here. Dragon shape is now easier to get...but..

Damage: Remains the same - mostly subpar physical damage.
DR: What DR?
AC: Drastically lowered to probably around mid 50s without improved expertise.
AB: Can now actually hit things if there is a relatively significant increase

In addition, dragon shape is still 3 use/rest, has a massive model size that makes it incredibly vulnerable to gonnes and mages who just hide behind fixtures, can only use potions while shifted, and requires an epic feat. So my question to the community is: why bother taking it? By stats wise, going 30 in druid and getting the monolith elemental forms are much better. You save an epic feat, you're less likely to get stuck, your form is unlimited.

[BegoneThoth]

I wouldn't take it on anything. I expect dragon-shape, and druid as a class, to be totally culled from the 'good builds' list in a very short time.

[Cortex]

Was druid EVER in any good builds list?

[Dreams]

It seems like it is now a great situational choice without being a crazy cheesy option that encourages two classes with incredibly different perspectives and outlooks to be forced into a character. The 25WIS requirement means Druids will have an easier time getting the feat. You could do something like a 23 Druid/4 Fighter/3 Rogue and have a pretty solid dragonshape. 60+ AC is fine.

[Sockss]

You'll probably have to play a druid that can dragon shape, rather than a dragonshaper, and utlise the whole kit.

The problem with druids elemental shapes (Despite imo them being overtuned) is that you're KD bait once you're out of them.

[BegoneThoth]

Was druid EVER in any good builds list?

I don't have the archive but I think druid monk cot d.shape was on there.

Either way, it's unanimous. Do not currently see a reason to play the class unless you really like Druid RP and don't mind the objectively awful mechanics behind it.

[Swords to Rust]

Freeing druids from having to multiclass as monks is pretty great. Though without monk dragonshape was never really great. Can see why the DR was removed, but don't really see the need for nerfs beyond this (and removing monk synergy). I hope the new dragonshape is going to be useful.

[Wytchee]

A change was needed. DS in its vanilla incarnation was broken. I just wish this incarnation didn't seem so woefully unimpressive mechanically. It's now a must have for druids who dip for discipline, though; but for a pure druid it's a wasted feat, as the elemental shapes are superior.

Note that I play a pure druid and have always been bothered by the monk/druid combo.

[Jack Oat]

Good riddance.

[Opustus]

I wouldn't mind making the dragonshape infinicast or more casts per day to fix the awkwardly biggun problem. Isn't the dragonshape still quite strong if your character is not going the full distance Druid30 to get Monolithic? Future development wise, if druid spells or the spell list gets upgraded, there may be potential in playing caster druids (you go WIS all the way anyway) with Bard or Monk levels (Tumble, UMD, Discipline for unshifted; Evasion) and switching between casting and Dragonshape situationally.

[Wytchee]

I wouldn't mind making the dragonshape infinicast or more casts per day to fix the awkwardly biggun problem. Isn't the dragonshape still quite strong if your character is not going the full distance Druid30 to get Monolithic? Future development wise, if druid spells or the spell list gets upgraded, there may be potential in playing caster druids with Bard or Monk levels (Tumble, UMD, Discipline for unshifted; Evasion) and switching between casting and Dragonshape situationally.

It's *only* viable for disc dip druids, and for them it's a straight up buff. It's a wasted feat on a pure druid, unless you're just really into dragons, I guess.

[Manabi]

why bother taking it?

Don't you know that discussing why mechanical changes on the forums in a non-positive light gets everyone upset in the bum-bum? I guess you take it for RP reasons, but who knows.

I've never played a D-Shaper, but I can't help but wonder what class will be ruined next for the sake of "balance." How many class changes have we had in the past year, anyway?

[BegoneThoth]

I believe weapon master will come next, perhaps linking their crit passives to the active active ki-strike skill.

[Cortex]

were ruining rogues next

the overpowered reign of rogues will soon come to an end.

WM is fine, and we won't touch it, probably ever.

[susitsu]

Most likely after that, wizards will no longer learn spells from scrolls and sorcerers will have one less spell known per level.

[BegoneThoth]

A good nerf to rogues would be to move thieves cant to 20, pretty much fixing the OPness of the class and giving deep rogue a real attractive option

[Miskol]

A change was needed. DS in its vanilla incarnation was broken. I just wish this incarnation didn't seem so woefully unimpressive mechanically. It's now a must have for druids who dip for discipline, though; but for a pure druid it's a wasted feat, as the elemental shapes are superior.

Note that I play a pure druid and have always been bothered by the monk/druid combo.

The fact is in the melee realm, mid 50s AC will have you easily melted. The fact that you only do ~40 physical damage a hit means it can be easily reduced. Having better AB is great and all, but low damage remains low and undiverse, and no DR as well as significantly reduced AC means you now wont get the chance to even dish out that many hits.

[Wytchee]

My gosh this thread. e_e

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0

Guys, if it's underpowered, it will be tweaked. The devs aren't out to punish you.

[Scurvy Cur]

Local man discovered to be buoyant in forums. Salt content to blame.



Described experience to reporters as "The most pleasant, relaxing, and enjoyable reading experience of my life".

[Jack Oat]

MALI ECONOMY IN TOILET



Mali's economy, based primarily on the salt trade, has plummeted as companies and corporations shift to this thread for new, self-replenishing source of salt!

[Irongron]

Being able to trasform into an actual dragon is a huge deal, irrespective of its mechanical power. I am very pleased that this change has finally happened, though personally wasn't sold on the lower WIS cost. I would prefer to see less dragons, or none at all.

[Miskol]

Being able to trasform into an actual dragon is a huge deal, irrespective of its mechanical power. I am very pleased that this change has finally happened, though personally wasn't sold on the lower WIS cost. I would prefer to see less dragons, or none at all.

But Irongron, anyone can do that with shapechange the spell, or buy a scroll.

[Sockss]

Although now, of course, you can get EDK, HB and GR on top of dragon shape!

[susitsu]

irongron why won't you let me 5% a dragon and do cool things with that

[Hunter548]