Problems with adventuring

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Lorkas
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Lorkas » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:42 am

If I were the one coding it, I'd make it per person to check the chest, but put it on a cooldown that's the same length as a normal chest takes to respawn loot. That is to say, if someone checks it and it's empty, it's empty. Having 5 party members look into it will result in 5 party members seeing an empty chest. Come back again later, and it might be filled (better make sure a new person checks the chest this time though).

If it were me, I would also code it to spawn normal chest loot if the artefact roll fails. There's no reason a high-end chest should be just flat empty.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:44 am

Bosses just need to learn to disjunct / word of faith EDK and suddenly people need groups to kill bosses again.

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Sockss
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Sockss » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:23 pm

Personally I feel artefact's as items are as broken as the mechanic.

It's a system that actively rewards people who skip content to charge for artefacts and encourages players to keep artefacts within an OOC group; while simultaneously making the environment incredibly heard to balance. (Do you balance around end game gear, or optimum artefact gear? Both are entirely different settings, and catering to either causes problems when the other arises)

Mirroring some similar opinions, I also dislike not finding anything rewarding at the end of an adventure, whether that's a low tier ore for the area, entirely useless items or nothing at all.

Loot could do with an overhaul, while loot might be more varied than in the past, that doesn't necessarily add anything except junk to haul back and vendor (+5 animal empathy whips, +1 charisma no-damage katanas etc.). If the intention was to make good things less common, that could be achieved by adding in more usable loot (as oppose to trash) and would, IMO, be a better direction than adding in useless things as it encourages way more RP than trash-selling some trash to a vendor.

On the subject of loot, playing a mini-game in which you have to pick 4 different things off of a corpse, then pack them into a box, is absolutely awful and entirely needless. Everything else pales in comparison to the absolute annoyance it brings me.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:42 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote:Bosses just need to learn to disjunct / word of faith EDK and suddenly people need groups to kill bosses again.
Nah, they just need to stop stubbornly trying to kill the red dragon with fire based attacks IMO

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gilescorey
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by gilescorey » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:47 pm

me, about a month ago wrote:I'm not memeing. I believe artefacts should either be completely overhauled or removed entirely. They're an arbitrary, silly system that throws a gigantic wrench into the finer points of mechanical balancing.

And I say this as somebody who's played a character with enough artefacts to meet and exceed the +20 cap on saves. It's not fun to play against something like that.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:53 pm

It's a can of worms. Removing artefacts now would only further widen the gap between characters that have artefacts and those who don't.

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Cortex
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Cortex » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:06 pm

-XXX- wrote:It's a can of worms. Removing artefacts now would only further widen the gap between characters that have artefacts and those who don't.
Those eventually vanish.
:)

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:10 pm

Yeah, just after giving all their useful artefacts to other members of their clique!

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Sockss
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Sockss » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:16 pm

Making them unable to be traded, or my personal favourite, not repairable (If/when replaced by an alternate system) would be ace.

Muling's against the rules anyway!
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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gilescorey
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by gilescorey » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:21 pm

-XXX- wrote:Yeah, just after giving all their useful artefacts to other members of their clique!

IIllII
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by IIllII » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:21 pm

Remove artifacts and replace them by adding more craftables, have bosses drop unique materials for these items instead, which is the case for one boss already.

Regardless of what happens, those with more time to play Arelith will remain stronger than those that don't.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:47 pm

Maybe have the artefacts spawn from a pool of powerful premade items (say, a nice endgame piece tailored for every class).
IMO there's nothing inherently OP about artefacts that have a +4 stat property for as long as there's not more than one of them on a single item.

@gilescorey: "Bcliqueman", huh? Impressive...

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gilescorey
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by gilescorey » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:49 am

my lackadaisical ms paint edits are the stuff of legend

If artefacts weren't random there wouldn't be a problem. The current system can spawn silly stuff like 4 AC boots, or you can get laughable garbage like monk-only tower shields. The issue isn't the stats, it's the randomly generated way you actually acquire loot -- removing the "roll of the dice" aspect would only up the top-shelf level of gear, which isn't inherently a bad thing.

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Durvayas
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Durvayas » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:52 am

kinda is though. It rewards the people who grind even harder when it is static. Right now, about 80% of the time, it wastes everyone's time, which is unironically better for slowing power creep.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

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gilescorey
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by gilescorey » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:15 am

No, it isn't. Because if everyone can get it, then everyone can get it.

Right now, only some people can get it, because it's all random generation. Scholar posted numbers about it once, and they're some minute number with twelve zeroes in front of it.

Basically, look at it like this:

Way it is now, has power creep, which is either molasses slow or you hit the lottery and get a +4 AC +4 str helmet or whatever, or you get nothing. That's power discrepancy, between the lucky and the unlucky.

Non-random drops:

No power creep at all. It's not random, so you can assume everyone has this gear when firing off numbers (stuff like 43 AC/47 AB on a scim WM). That earlier discrepancy simply doesn't exist.

Astral
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Astral » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:24 am

Artefects should be divided to tiers and every character should have a chance to find ONE artefect from each tier every reset. It will reduce the gap between people who 'adventure' to powerbuilds who silent grind and log next to the boss spawn afterwards.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Devil Dog
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Devil Dog » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Many reasons why high level dungeons are still worth going to. And it is definately not for artifacts. But im not an artifact hunter. And i will add i've seen and mined my share of adamantine recently.

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:48 pm

Devil Dog wrote:Many reasons why high level dungeons are still worth going to. And it is definately not for artifacts. But im not an artifact hunter. And i will add i've seen and mined my share of adamantine recently.
We have gone trough several epic dungeons and it never was worthy of it side by XPS. Sadly, this is no valid anymore once you hit cap.

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:51 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Cerk Evermoore wrote:Bosses just need to learn to disjunct / word of faith EDK and suddenly people need groups to kill bosses again.
Nah, they just need to stop stubbornly trying to kill the red dragon with fire based attacks IMO

Not everyone summons whats powerful, many people conjure creatures according their aligments and banish people conjuring evil creatures!

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greatfanfare
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by greatfanfare » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:24 pm

flower wrote:
Devil Dog wrote:Many reasons why high level dungeons are still worth going to. And it is definately not for artifacts. But im not an artifact hunter. And i will add i've seen and mined my share of adamantine recently.
We have gone trough several epic dungeons and it never was worthy of it side by XPS. Sadly, this is no valid anymore once you hit cap.
Yesterday, two adamantine veins in two very popular dungeons, one at Surface, the other VERY close to Surface.

Other than the cleric casting magic vestment and str, everything else I put on using my own wands, my char isn't a wm, just a regular fighter/rogue, only one piece of equipment is an artifact.

Matter of luck.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:50 pm

flower wrote:Not everyone summons whats powerful, many people conjure creatures according their aligments and banish people conjuring evil creatures!
Well, simply usng EDK is usually not enough if you want to solo most endgame bosses with it. You need to pick the right type as well. Mechanics don't care about arbitrary "alignment RP" that persecutes fiend conjurers and necromancers but lets naked drow wander around the forest.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:02 pm

-XXX- wrote:
flower wrote:Not everyone summons whats powerful, many people conjure creatures according their aligments and banish people conjuring evil creatures!
Well, simply usng EDK is usually not enough if you want to solo most endgame bosses with it. You need to pick the right type as well. Mechanics don't care about arbitrary "alignment RP" that persecutes fiend conjurers and necromancers but lets naked drow wander around the forest.
Er when did this become okay to randomly attack players?

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:06 pm

-XXX- wrote:
flower wrote: ...
Sounds kind of sore post. Each character is responsbile for own actions. If Olivia was not conjuring evil creatures, Elves might have let her wander around their forest naked too.


I am able to kill Abazuur with Silver dragon. But yes, i cannot surround endgame bosses with vampires and keep casting on it drains. Each has props and cons...and i had a feeling we are on role play server where you are expecting to role play your aligment. Thus if i conjured red wyrm/vampires as good character i would expect DM to shift my aligment to evil.

Greatfanfare

I am aware of it. But i really have no need for adamantite. my point is you spend like 3 hrs in some long location where you cannot even teleport out of it and find some trash in the end. But i do understand you cannot find valueble things all the time, this may be the cursed circle of dungeon. You put useful items in there and people hoard them, you make it random, and mostly nothing valueble will come out of it.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:25 pm

Not at all! Sorry if I my comment came out the wrong way. I don't think we are on the same page here, so let me set the record straight:

Firstly, I was commenting on the remarks regarding the power level of EDK when it comes to fighting bosses guarding the artefact shrines. While I have no doubts that Brizshala can solo Abazuur with a silver dragon, fact remains that the silver dragon cannot solo overcome Abazuur without a lvl 30 battlecleric at its flank, the red dragon can (mainly because Abazuur uses a lot of fire based attacks which the red dragon is immune to, as I mentioned before). As such, choosing the silver dragon is not the smart (or optimal) choice for that particular encounter (I could list a few others, but I digress).
On the other hand, Abazuur doesn't need to suddenly learn how to disjunct+WoF in order to combat this tactic as it would make the use of any summons during that encounter useless and as such seems a rather excessive measure. What it needs is to become smarter and not spam fire breath, meteor swarm, etc.

Secondly, alignment RP is arbitrary, which is a perfectly fine thing IC. I suppose what I wanted to say is that it is also largely irrelevant when it comes to discussing game mechanics, but I foolishly triggered this trap so:
Elves letting Eilistraeeans wander the forest because they came to believe that they are indeed good but at the same time drawing the line at undead and fiends is perfectly fine and the conflict such decisions can stir is as much cool beans! (even though many of us remember times when the DMs would just not let drow befriending elves slide, but times change - i'd say for the better)
But considering someone not RPing their alignment properly simply because of what summons they conjure is IMO a little bit too hardcore (we have conjuration books and -streams for a reason after all). If anything, it allows for characters to face the connundrum whether to compromise, make a hard call and succeed or be unable to adapt and fail - every single DM quest I have had the opportunity to be a part of had a revolving subtheme of posing a challenge for characters who'd break before they'd bend.
Bottom line, summonning a red dragon doesn't instantly make your character evil. Just the same way as a raving homicidal maniac won't all of sudden become good simply because he happens to be conjuring Devas and Silver dragons.

Addendum: The idea of good and evil in the forgotten realms is not the same as IRL. They are both two opposing cosmic forces and a character's alignment is a dynamic stat that represents how their actions forward the agenda of each of these forces. In a way, performing lesser evils in the name of greater good (and vice versa) is a perfectly fitting way of RPing some alignments. In this example conjuring a red dragon to combat Abazuur ultimately results in this equation: where there were 2 red dragons before, now is only 1. Unless your character is a paladin, this is a perfectly acceptable behavior for most alignments.

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