Problems with adventuring

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Garveus
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Problems with adventuring

Post by Garveus » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:29 pm

I feel like there's not really any point in going to high level dungeons anymore.

You're not gonna find an artefact, I haven't found one for months (opened around 100 shrines, nothing). I've talked to a few other players about this specific thing, they feel similar - finding an artefact seems to be nigh impossible a task now.

Besides, the shrines are very often destroyed as well.

I noticed there's close to no difference between normal chests: dungeons for level 20 hold loot identical to level 30 ones. I think monster loot is exposed to a similar flaw too. Circle-grinding certain locations and selling the things you find is way more profitable (and easier).

You no longer even get to mine adamantine/mithril, haven't seen either of the two for quite a while. It's almost funny when as difficult dungeon as beholders rewards you with iron ore. This applies to pretty much all dungeons where adamantine/mithril was a "fixed" loot formerly. It also means just locating the mentioned materials requires much more time and effort than it used to. You're still not exactly guaranteed getting them either, because when a vein pops up in one of the dungeons, chances are good someone will grind it till the well runs dry (and I personally don't blame anyone for doing so - given how the current system works, it's absolutely rational to do that), plus it's likely you'll have to fight for it, too (which isn't neccessarily wrong, it does add to the improbabilty of obtaining the resource, though).

Adventuring nowadays is much more time consuming, yet it's less rewarding than it used to be. It's become a chore, one rather unfun at that, at least for me personally. I'm aware this is an RP server, but I'm also adamant in belief adventuring is still one of the core essences of Dungeons and Dragons and especially of Neverwinter Nights.

There's been many great updates over the last few months, and I deeply appreciate the time and effort the devs put into making them happen. So while this may appear as an overly negative topic, please keep in mind I'm not trying to stir up trouble or cause distress, I'm merely attempting to discuss what I perceive as a problem (and what could, perhaps, be an overlooked culmination of all balance-related changes).

I believe this is the kind of theme that can "go south" quickly, so I appeal to you, please try to remain as respectful and relevant as possible. With all that said, I'd love to hear what you think!

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Cuchilla
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Cuchilla » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:45 pm

I am not sure what precisely you're referring to when you say "like it used to be". A few comments on loots:

I'd say, compared to about 2 years ago, the loot matrix in the chests is much more interesting. When the devs started experimenting with new loots, there was a time when really good stuff was too common and trivial. I find the matrix a bit more balanced now, in the sense that really good and useful stuff is still rare.

I still find that there is a lot for low lewelled, a good many loots for mid levelled chars. Very seldom something for highlevelled.

My impression is that there is a difference between say Bloodmoon and Duergar Halls.

The system has also become much more interesting for chars with high Search, as they can find interesting stuff.

It's also become more interesting for enchanters. Means, that you can seek out enchanters to make some descent stuff better.

You can still find really, really good stuff, but chances of finding it, are low. Which imo is allright. I do like it when you only find such in, say every tenth time you are out checking chests.

And if you're only going for the coins from selling the things to NPC merchants, you'll seldom be disappointed.

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:50 pm

After opening thirty chests finding nothing interesting man usually looses any motivation to search further...mh.

Nitro
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Nitro » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:09 pm

Garveus wrote: Adventuring nowadays is much more time consuming, yet it's less rewarding than it used to be. It's become a chore, one rather unfun at that, at least for me personally. I'm aware this is an RP server, but I'm also adamant in belief adventuring is still one of the core essences of Dungeons and Dragons and especially of Neverwinter Nights.
Well, there was a time not too long ago when we didn't have any artefacts at all, and adamantine was dime a dozen but people still kept adventuring then. If anything, things are way better now because there actually is a chance to get something out of the dungeon, whether it's an artefact or some good resource spawns.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:15 pm

Honestly, I have found Adamantine, Mithril and such, never found artifacts when I went to Mount Mourn, but heck it was fun, came out nearly 50k ahead before the ingots. The point is to go out exploring. I think the randomizing of the ore could use a minor bit of tweaking perhaps to increase the Mithril flow as its nearly non existent, this is still a newer update, and tweaks take time and place to get just right. Otherwise loot chests, I think are perfect.

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Iceborn
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Iceborn » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:22 pm

Relatively speaking...

When I started playing in Arelith, I remember memorizing the whole content of the loot matrix in... two weeks. There was simply -nothing- interesting at all to find as loot, and the only loot that mattered at all were artifacts. Now, I keep finding new items all the time, even playing a character that compulsively opens every chest at every chance.

Artifacts are a huge can of worms. Should they be less rare? Should they be a motivation? I like the idea of epic loot that is simply amazing, but I don't like the idea of artifact decking.

Just today I found my first artifact in a random chest in an epic area, not even an artifact chest. Ain't great, but it's something and I wasn't even looking for it.
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SwampFoot
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by SwampFoot » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:54 am

I generally don't bother looking for artefacts. Usually the artefact found sucks, or you end up squabbling over who needs it more. I've never seen one (on my own adventures) that seemed useful.

Loot chests are an interesting bit. Seems like most are geared toward the level of the area with a random chance of finding something great. Case in point, I found a Dragonslayer at a place usually frequented by level 5s.

Resources might need a bit of consistency. Currently i can sell mithral ore at seventeen thousand a piece. Oddly, Adamantine has seen a considerable drop in price. Not that I get either one of those, short of blind luck.

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RedGiant
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by RedGiant » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:24 am

I've a radical thought.

I personally love the loot now, and the chests. The artefacts I've always thought a little unfair. With a party, it took me all evening to run one artefact dungeon, yes to find nothing. But then I once ran with a Drow sword and board 20/7/3 cliché and hit literally five artefact chests in an hour or two tops.

I believe this is why we have the current system.

What if in addition to shrines (because rogues would riot if we took them out), we added small randomized artefact drop chance to ALL bosses, but have it scale from infinitesimal on beginning bosses, like the 'treasure rat,' to fairly substantial on end bosses, like the "tidehunter'?
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by liver and bones » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:57 am

RedGiant wrote:I've a radical thought.

I personally love the loot now, and the chests. The artefacts I've always thought a little unfair. With a party, it took me all evening to run one artefact dungeon, yes to find nothing. But then I once ran with a Drow sword and board 20/7/3 cliché and hit literally five artefact chests in an hour or two tops.

I believe this is why we have the current system.

What if in addition to shrines (because rogues would riot if we took them out), we added small randomized artefact drop chance to ALL bosses, but have it scale from infinitesimal on beginning bosses, like the 'treasure rat,' to fairly substantial on end bosses, like the "tidehunter'?
I honestly hoped bosses would have something substantial to them to offset the fact most melee classes can't actually open chests. Then again I understand why they don't given people's habit to loop a dungeon.

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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:01 am

Get rid of the arte shrines and have the boss drop them instead. No more luring away epic boss spawns to unlock their treasures despite being unable to defeat them!

Nitro
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Nitro » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:57 am

Then there would be a lot more artefacts floating around, since it's pretty easy to farm most bosses once every 18 or so minutes.

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Iceborn
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Iceborn » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:26 pm

Nitro wrote:Then there would be a lot more artefacts floating around, since it's pretty easy to farm most bosses once every 18 or so minutes.
Amia had something like this approach.
Their artifacts are dropped in a 5% chance by epic bosses, but the difference is that every character can only spawn every epic boss once a reset.
so this usually resolves in going to boss rushes every reset. Killing every epic boss once per character involved in the party, and then roll a die to share the loot, if any.

I'm not sure if I'd like to see the same in Arelith, but however artifacts are reworked in the future, I once read a suggestion that I found interesting, some time ago. It was something like:
"you can only have 1 mayor artifact, and 2 standard artifacts equipped at once".


This being one aspect of adventuring in epics.
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Visible Obscurity
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Visible Obscurity » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:55 pm

If it were to be a thing that bosses drop artefacts, even on a % chance of it, then please please don't take away shrines and ~do~ make them unbashable. All toons can get at the boss artefacts, give the rogues a tinsy bit of love. (and yeah, I know pixies etc...)

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:47 pm

My friend played LI II and items there drop once per thousend epic Bosses.

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:17 pm

I still don't have any artefacts on any characters.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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flower
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by flower » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:38 pm

The only worthy thing we gained mostly from epic places were XPS.

Once our party hit max levels we almost immedietly stopped adventuring at all. Friend only makes a new toon to replace old one, so we may begin anew but in general we spend most time crafting, idling around, chatting or just wandering around places :D

Despite the hard places we ever visited, the only worthy item back ages ago we donated to a paladin and since it nothing useful came out of chests be them common or artefact.

So the motivation to go those dungeons taking 2hrs of our time on fast passage mode (or almost six when heavily rping) is total zero as money from the dungeon will each of us make on low lvl npcs for minium of time (as loot from thing / number of toons is ridiculous).

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:18 am

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:I still don't have any artefacts on any characters.
Them feels.

With that said... I see artefacts in shops all the time. And I mean that literally. I can always find an artefact in a shop when I log in if I go looking for one.

However, they tend to be totally useless for Most(tm) characters, and one is some day destined to be totally laughable based on inevitable random chance: see - Only usable by: LG, Only usable by: Blackguard (unless there's some preventive measure in the code to keep these restrictions from applying simultaneously that I don't know about, which is entirely possible).

I'm personally ambivalent, because with the exception of some items that have things like permanent freedom on them, 99% of artefacts still don't compare with top-tier enchanter gear, which is now loot gear in the ballpark of what I believe to be +2 to 3 skills, +1 to two stats, and the runic property (allowing a guaranteed third stat OR +1 uni saves).

That 1%, though (+4 CHA shield, drool).
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-XXX-
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by -XXX- » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:23 am

Iceborn wrote:
Nitro wrote:Then there would be a lot more artefacts floating around, since it's pretty easy to farm most bosses once every 18 or so minutes.


Amia had something like this approach.
Their artifacts are dropped in a 5% chance by epic bosses, but the difference is that every character can only spawn every epic boss once a reset.
so this usually resolves in going to boss rushes every reset. Killing every epic boss once per character involved in the party, and then roll a die to share the loot, if any.

I'm not sure if I'd like to see the same in Arelith, but however artifacts are reworked in the future, I once read a suggestion that I found interesting, some time ago. It was something like:
"you can only have 1 mayor artifact, and 2 standard artifacts equipped at once".


This being one aspect of adventuring in epics.
TBH, giving people incentives to travel in groups is a positive thing. The current system gives plenty of incentives to hit the arte shrines solo as soon as you can handle the dungeon by yourself (or rather, as soon as you can evade all the creeps and stay alive against the boss long enough to loot the artefact shrines).
So yeah, while the Amia system might not seem ideal, it is still vastly superior to the current Arelith one IMHO

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by WanderingPoet » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:30 pm

One big problem I find with the current adventuring is the end-dungeon chests that are infinitely trapped. It is kind of silly that you can fight your way through plenty of foes, take down a hard boss and then... Not get any loot because the chest is trapped and the trap never fades.

What happens when the trap is infinite? You have to bash the chest to get anything from it, and you usually end up with just gold.

Yes, one could bring a rogue or a pixie to handle traps, but not everyone knows a local rogue or wizard that they happen to want to bring to dangerous dungeons at the time that they happen to head out. It is ultimately disappointing to get through the boss and then get little to nothing for it just because you lack a specific class on your team.

On Artefacts though, I found my very first artefact after nearly 11 months of playing Yeto last night! It was pretty bad though(And is on sale while supplies last~).

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FoxyPigeon
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by FoxyPigeon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:56 pm

Make arti chests unbashable (you can currently still bash them AND find artis by doing so). Make the bosses drop a 1 use key that opens them to avoid cheesing past them.

SwampFoot
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by SwampFoot » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:10 pm

What if artefacts spawned once per character per reset? Rogue opens the chest, finds something, the WM opens behind him, finds something, so on. Chest no longer spawns something for those characters that have gained something until the next reset but remains useful for the next group. Keep it random so your something might be crap but there's a chance for something good.

This promotes groups instead of the solo artists rushing in, bashing the chest and ruining the fun for everyone else.

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Cortex
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Cortex » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:50 pm

You either get a lot of artefacts all around, most bad, but a lot of game breaking busted multiple +4 gear, or you get very few in the server, with a few people never seeing one.

No matter what "magic formula" you come up with, it's one of the two.
:)

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Dreams
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Dreams » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:41 pm

FoxyPigeon wrote:Make arti chests unbashable (you can currently still bash them AND find artis by doing so). Make the bosses drop a 1 use key that opens them to avoid cheesing past them.
These are excellent ideas.

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Lorkas
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by Lorkas » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:36 am

Rather than a once-per-character-per-reset spawn rate, it could be something like a 5% chance per-character-per-reset, or even per player. Also deny that chance for bashing, or at least make the artefact chest respawn if someone does bash it.

We would get rid of this idea that you have wait long enough after a reset for it to spawn, but not so long that someone else goes and happens to get it first. People are already talking about it being pointless to go to an artefact dungeon in the first 2-4 hours after a reset or to go after 10-12 hours have passed. A 5%-per-character-per-reset would mean that someone running through 5 artefact dungeons has a ~23% chance of finding one (instead of finding 5) and doesn't deny other PCs the chance to see one.

TimeAdept
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Re: Problems with adventuring

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:39 am

Would that be per character to check the chest? i.e. bringing along more people increases the odds of finding an artifact?

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