Horses

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Horses

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:12 pm

All The Sinners Saints wrote:At least earlier today, and for several days prior Summon Mount was working just fine, and that was for a non horse award character.

Not that removing it in anyway helps avert the trainwreck of an update this is. Without risking hyperbole, I can say with complete confidence, that these changes fundamentally alter the game for most classes, and unbalance it on a deep level.
I agree. It makes 30 ride more mandatory for discipline for some characters, as mandatory as tumble for others, and as required as both for everyone else. Mounted combat is now a required feat, for everyone, as far as I can see it, as opposed to being a fun toy it's now required. 5 ab and 5 ac is too much, even if it only moves at 100% speed and outside.
All The Sinners Saints wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:
Irongron wrote:Also, as I said in the update post some of these combat bonuses will be affected by horse equipment and breed. Gaining those full bonuses will not always be guaranteed as the horses themselves will be limited.
Well, horse hording and hiding is about to be a thing. Moreso if you have some pvp in mind. If you're going to cause some trouble at the arcane tower, head over there 30 minutes early and move their horses so they can't have them during the fight.
Not only that, but it ensures that a single pc with a horse can utterly decimate entire groups if they cannot reliably count on having access to a horse to counter the considerable move speed, and incredible ab/ac advantage.
Yeah. It widens the gap between powerbuilders and everyone else even more. Some people may feel it's not 'in character' to get ride, and then get ridden down en masse by a few 20/7/3's.

I don't think I need to talk about this anymore. I think horses being anything other then a fun toy with some bonus movespeed is a huge mistake. But mistake or no it just gave my characters 5 ab and 5 ac, so of course I'm taking it.
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Irongron
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Re: Horses

Post by Irongron » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:13 pm

All The Sinners Saints wrote:At least earlier today, and for several days prior Summon Mount was working just fine, and that was for a non horse award character.

Not that removing it in anyway helps avert the trainwreck of an update this is. Without risking hyperbole, I can say with complete confidence, that these changes fundamentally alter the game for most classes, and unbalance it on a deep level.
It could be there was a bug with the removal of summon mount, though I recall it only remains for those who previously had the horse reward, with the changes to their ride bonus I don't think that's a necessity.

Ride gear should probably be disabled from the combat bonuses, counting for only the speed/fall checks though.

Once we have the breeds in place almost all horses will be of the 'normal variety' which will likely have a lower cap to their mounted combat bonuses, while the destriers will be restricted to 2-3 specific locations.

The way the AC bonus works on horses is that you lose your tumble bonus, UNLESS you also have ride. Mounted combat then applies an extra AC on top of that. This was a miscommunication in some part though, as I originally envisioned that mounted combat would simply count the AC bonus whether one had tumble or not.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Horses

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:15 pm

Irongron wrote: The way the AC bonus works on horses is that you lose your tumble bonus, UNLESS you also have ride. Mounted combat then applies an extra AC on top of that. This was a miscommunication in some part though, as I orgiginally envisioned that mounted combat would simply count the AC bonus whether one had tumble or not.
Right, so with max tumble, ride, and mounted combat, you're up AC and AB.

Those skills and feats are now a required investment.
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Irongron
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Re: Horses

Post by Irongron » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:19 pm

It may be better to have the AB bonus apply on the first attack in a round, for the 'charge' aspect. Though I will know more once we've replaced all the horse breeds.

Each model of horse also has different armour options, and my hope is to eventually have that as an extra option/crafted ability, influencing AC bonuses and penalties, though on the current timetable that will happen after the breeds are introduced.

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Lorkas
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Re: Horses

Post by Lorkas » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Some suggestions for balancing factors:
1) Make it possible somehow to simulate targeting the horse. Knockdown and called shot: leg should be targeting the horse's discipline, rather than the rider's. Hold monster should target the horse's will save instead of the rider's, web/entangle/grease should target the horse's reflex save, Balagarn's Iron Horn should target the horse's STR, all traps and reflex-for-half-damage spells should be targeting the horse's saves (including whether or not the horse has evasion/improved evasion, rather than whether or not the rider has them), and so forth. Animal empathy, dominate monster, or dominate animal should force a dismount.
2) When mounting, give the rider an amount of bonus HP equal to the horse's HP. When this temp HP is depleted, the rider is force-dismounted and the horse dies (it can be raised, of course, but that's costly). In order to keep the horse alive, the rider needs to dismount, at which point, the horse will have a current HP equal to the temp HP that was remaining before dismounting, and the rider can heal the horse at this point to keep it on its feet.

These sorts of things would need to be thought through carefully, but there needs to be some counterplay introduced for horses if bonuses like +5 ranged AB and up to +10 melee AB are being introduced. There's a reason why many mounted units throughout history would dismount rather than enter melee while riding--the horse gives great mobility, but presents a second target that's in some ways more vulnerable than the rider themselves would be without the horse. Being on a horse isn't outright better in all combat circumstances than being on foot would be.

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Irongron
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Re: Horses

Post by Irongron » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:35 pm

Absolutely, we have already discussed ways to bring riders down with more effective weapons. I love the idea spells like Grease and Gust of Wind too.

Trunx
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Re: Horses

Post by Trunx » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:36 pm

Why have all these big changes now if they're going to be changed, possibly in a drastic manner, soon? People will once again be disappointed when they build for something and get the rug pulled from under them. Wouldn't it have been better to discuss the changes and maybe wait with the implementation until the horse breeds are replaced?

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Punished Hans
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Re: Horses

Post by Punished Hans » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Trunx wrote:Why have all these big changes now if they're going to be changed, possibly in a drastic manner, soon? People will once again be disappointed when they build for something and get the rug pulled from under them. Wouldn't it have been better to discuss the changes and maybe wait with the implementation until the horse breeds are replaced?
The underdark doesn't have horses :^)

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Re: Horses

Post by SwampFoot » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:46 pm

Personally I'd prefer horse riders to gain bonuses that make sense rather than huge AB/AC gains. Mounted archery bonus remains.

A small spot bonus (sitting higher for a wider field of vision). A listen debuff (you're sitting on a snorting, clomping, farting animal, how can you hear a sneak?). Warhorses provide a damage reduction and temp hp. Faster breeds provide larger movement speeds.

As for it currently being a required skill, some classes take huge hits to skills that their class needs to be effective. Any sneak on a horse is just bad. I'll never take ride skill on my rogue.

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Irongron
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Re: Horses

Post by Irongron » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Trunx wrote:Why have all these big changes now if they're going to be changed, possibly in a drastic manner, soon? People will once again be disappointed when they build for something and get the rug pulled from under them. Wouldn't it have been better to discuss the changes and maybe wait with the implementation until the horse breeds are replaced?
I expect them to come very soon, as well as some adjustments to these original numbers. Horses is really big project though, and something I prefer to handle incrementally with changes to the numbers than introduce a vast, potentially flawed system.

While some of the bonuses might change as we move forward the general principles will remain in place, so builds should not be wasted.

The other reason I needed the first parts of this to be released is related specifically to Darrowdeep Castle, which is rapidly nearing completion. Given one of its focus is horses I needed this to happen. If I waited with Darrowdeep until every aspect of riding was completed it could be another 6 months away.

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gilescorey
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Re: Horses

Post by gilescorey » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:00 pm

Image

SwampFoot
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Re: Horses

Post by SwampFoot » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:05 pm

Irongron wrote:
Trunx wrote:Why have all these big changes now if they're going to be changed, possibly in a drastic manner, soon? People will once again be disappointed when they build for something and get the rug pulled from under them. Wouldn't it have been better to discuss the changes and maybe wait with the implementation until the horse breeds are replaced?
I expect them to come very soon, as well as some adjustments to these original numbers. Horses is really big project though, and something I prefer to handle incrementally with changes to the numbers than introduce a vast, potentially flawed system.

While some of the bonuses might change as we move forward the general principles will remain in place, so builds should not be wasted.

The other reason I needed the first parts of this to be released is related specifically to Darrowdeep Castle, which is rapidly nearing completion. Given one of its focus is horses I needed this to happen. If I waited with Darrowdeep until every aspect of riding was completed it could be another 6 months away.
This translates as: "Wait until horses and their bonuses have been picked through and tweaked to build a ride-specific character". Toss ride into a character that changes won't break and when changes happen you won't be crying.

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Cortex
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Re: Horses

Post by Cortex » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:27 pm

I HIGHLY recommend you do NOT make a large investment on horse riding characters right now unless you are alright with changes that may or not invalidate build choices you've made.
:)

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Irongron
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Re: Horses

Post by Irongron » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:36 pm

Edit to the update incoming as numbers are being adjusted, and some features withheld until breeds are in place.

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flower
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Re: Horses

Post by flower » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:45 pm

What are people crying about?

1) you need TWO skills at 30 to get AC.
That means INT on expanse of str or other
2) youneed FEAT to utilize it
3) all this for riding on road
4) there will be CAP on bonuses on each horse
No you will likely not get +10/+10 and 150% speed on a single breed


What the hell is this fuss about?

Like yeah add things to target horses then noone needs to bother with riding anymore itis impossible to remount in fight. Or killing horse when hps run out ridiculous.

,ou really suggest that single spell / thing would counter something demanding specialisation in for limited areas? Why bother at all with all scripting it.

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Twily
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Re: Horses

Post by Twily » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:06 pm

I have to agree that I do NOT feel this overpowered.

1st: Irongron said Ride gear does not count. This means it'll be really difficult to get above 50 ride. You can only gain 50 ride if you max out your ride and spend multiple feats to do so.(Unless you're dex based..)
2nd: It's easily countered. Don't want to fight a horse rider on foot? I wouldn't either! Just walk inside. There's indoor spaces literally just about everywhere. Odds are if someone builds to be a rider, they'll be weaker than they otherwise would have been when indoors(due to the 30 skill points and multiple feat investment)
3rd: A majority of dungeons are indoors.

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Lorkas
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Re: Horses

Post by Lorkas » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:10 pm

Maybe because really crazy high bonuses were being stacked onto horse riding. +8 AB in melee, if it exists on any horse at all, even without other buffs on the horse, is OP and shouldn't exist without any counterplay. It's a crazy amount of AB--the same as the difference between a level 16 fighter and a level 16 sorcerer. It's enough to make typically lower-AB classes like rogues wind up with more AB on a horse than any 20/7/3 WM STR build does when not on a horse, and it would be enough to push my current meleer up to +58 AB, which has big implications for anyone who thinks that they're safe from KD spam with their 60 discipline dump (that takes it from a 10% chance to be KD'd on the highest-AB attack to a 40% chance to be KD'd on the highest-AB attack). I've never heard of even a 5% roll giving anywhere close to that (+3 AB and +3 damage from a +6 STR modifier, back in the heyday of mechanical major rewards, was about the limit).

It's a big deal, and would need serious counterplay options if implemented as originally posted, and it's why Irongron has already modified the system to lower the bonuses.

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flower
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Re: Horses

Post by flower » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:14 pm

High ab bonus counters high ac bonus of other riders.

Beside irongron stated multiple time bonuses will have cap on breeds. And yes enter indoors and rider sucks.

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Peppermint
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Re: Horses

Post by Peppermint » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:15 pm

Yeah, no. We're not turning Arelith into a horse overlords simulator. Sorry.

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Twily
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Re: Horses

Post by Twily » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:18 pm

Not meaning to argue, simply trying to explain my view here:

If we take a standard strength based weapon master build, and say they max out ride, as well as get SkillFocus*/EpicSkillFocus* Ride as well as Mounted Combat, which is 3 feats, and is quite expensive for an already feat heavy build...

That lands them at 33 from levels, +13 from focus*, meaning 46. If we say they have a 14 dex mod(the average for that build), that can get them up to 48. If we assume they can somehow get a little bit more without gear(since gear doesn't count), that could get them to 50, but I'm not sure getting above that without gear is even possible for that build. That means they'd really only be getting +4, or +5 at best to their AB, and I assume this is also a soft bonus, which means they get that much less AB from true strike(something just about everyone uses before they go in for a heavy attack anyways)

*Even this is assuming Arelith has enabled SkillFocus/EpicSkillFocus in ride, as these aren't possible to get in base NWN

If the numbers are lowered I wouldn't complain, my main point is just this: it's not as bad as people seem to be saying. 80 may be the cap, but hitting that cap is near if not impossible for those without the horse riding gift.
Last edited by Twily on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Horses

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:32 pm

With the changes, paladins can easily reach the +20 to hit cap, with ride bonus's, gmw, and divine favor, effectively rendering them under a permanent true strike.

Would rather this not be the case, unless a scimitar calvary crusade is what is intended for the future of the server.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Horses

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:35 pm

The way it was introduced;
-A.C. changes
You no longer gain tumble A.C. whilst mounted. (Because whilst you can dodge out the way, your horse cannot). This can be offset by your ranks in ride on a 1 for 1 basis. So 30 ranks in tumble and 8 ranks in ride will get you -5AC.
With the mounted combat feat you ALSO gain 1AC per 5 ride ranks. (Mounted Combat feat now enabled - see below)

-AB Changes
If you have the mounted combat feat you gain +1 AB per 8 ride skill (incl Dex and equipment) to melee weapons when mounted. This is capped at +10 for 80 points.

If you have the mounted archery feat you gain +5 AB to ranged weapons when mounted
Edit made a few hours later, it now reads
- Ride now substitutes for Tumble AC while mounted. The rider will receive a penalty to AC equal to their bonus AC provided by Tumble, but this penalty will be offset by 1 for every 5 ranks in Ride. No net AC will be gained by having Ride above 30.

- Mounted Combat now only offers a flat +1 AB to melee combat while on horseback. Further scaling of combat abilities according to the ride skill will be introduced alongside the upcoming 'horse breed' phase.

- Riders suffer from 10% Spell Failure unless they have the Mounted Combat feat.

- Mounted Archery no longer offers a +5 AB bonus, but instead, as in vanilla NWN, helps offset the default penalty to archery while on horseback.

- The legacy Ride Reward now substitutes for investment in the Ride skill, rather than stacking on top of invested skill ranks. The substitute ranks are equivalent to 5 + Hit Dice.
I am still firmly under the belief that horses as anything other then toys with movespeed is an enormous mistake as it will simply come as yet another mandatory character skill point and feat investment.

Edited to include the initial 'ride' overhaul.
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cortex
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Re: Horses

Post by Cortex » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:48 pm

In order to get anything other than the 150% move speed bonus, you need feats. And ride skill points to not lose tumble AC.
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Horses

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:06 pm

Right. Once the dust settles we can see if ride and mounted combat is as good as tumble and discipline. For a brief moment it out shined both. Let's save a feat and skill points until 30 in case it goes that way after all.
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flower
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Re: Horses

Post by flower » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:43 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Right. Once the dust settles we can see if ride and mounted combat is as good as tumble and discipline. For a brief moment it out shined both. Let's save a feat and skill points until 30 in case it goes that way after all.

You will need both, tumble and riding, to keep your AC.

Then you need a feat to make better use of your sklil.

That means raising INT (lowering other), wasting feat on it. Only humans will be fine as have free both (there should be some balance to that in form of better racial breeds!).

There could be alternative:

Riding (only base ranks count)
5 to ride
20 to ride without falling
30 as demand for mounted combat / archery

Riding would return penalty to tumble AC.
+1 damage / per 10 ranks
Mounted combat would add flat bonus +4/+5 dodge AC

Special perks:
CONS
horses aut fail reflex checks on greese
disabled items: tower shields, two handed / large weapons (no scythe rider master), no longbows, no heavy crossbows or gonnes
disabled abilities/checks: listen/tumble/spot - 60/, disabled hide option (no hipsing on horse!), always leaving tracks, no rage on horse

PROPS
gear giving horses decent ref saves vs greese OR FoM gearing
different breeds giving further modifiers to AC, damage, or speed
jousting: in arena(used with lance?), dismounting opponent on critical strike
outside(used with spears): inflicting penalty to rider's AC on succesfull hit, used as cool down ability
items to slightly improve bonuses


Humans have high advantage in both, skills and feats. So their steeds should be a bit worse than others. Elven to move faster (but limited to elven blood), dwarven (ponies or bears lol) giving either temporary HPS / DR and so on.

Example: human steed + 2 dmg + 2 AC VS elven steed +2 dmg +2 AC +10% speed increase

If spells / abilites would dismount rider or paralise it, then it has no meaning to play a rider at all because:
1) is impossible to remount (dialogue remount)
2) steeds would never pass saves vs proficient spell casters and be prone vs wands /scrolls
3) idea that horses adds hps and when gone steed dies is outright silly. It would be either insignificant ammoutn of HPS, one IGM scroll killing horse, or very large bonus (like +500).

And yes rider imho should have advantage over footman in open space. Especially when pays so many sklil points wise and feats on top of it, plus gearing (horse and accesoiress). But rider should be prevented to use these damage heavy weapons like greatsword, scythe, two handed axes....


Alternative:
big weapons: -10 AB penalty to hit
medium weapons: critical chance lowered by 2
tiny weapons: damage malus 10
spears: no change, when used as two handed gains + X dmg


Edit: If spells target horse, then make rider only stucked able to use items and fight fully with no further penalties. He could use counters to spells holding his horse (delay, offering vulnerable window) and during that would be target for lasting area spells.

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