The New PDK Changes

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Nitro
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Nitro » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:42 pm

Cortex wrote: As for the fun factor, this is an interesting topic to touch on. Why do you think it isn't fun? What about it is different from other buff oriented builds/classes? Worth to keep in mind Heroic Shield and Oath of Wrath are both free actions. And I don't expect you'll use each of the abilities every encounter.
It's the notion of constantly reapplying short duration buffs with short cooldown. Take world of warcraft for example, it used to have a lot of 2 minute, 5 minute and 10 minute buffs that it cost nothing but a button click to refresh, so it was just busywork, and blizzard eventually moved most of them into hour long, or permanently active buffs.

There obviously is some cooldown on these abilities for the knight, but it's pretty short, especially for your focused path, those you could probably keep up every fight depending on how quickly your party clears through things, so it just seems like unecessary busywork to have to reapply the buff every fight, even bards can get a feat that let's them keep their bard song on for a significantly longer period of time without constant reapplication.

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Hunter548
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:46 pm

CragOrion wrote:Except with this update, PDK is no longer a melee class. It's a button-mashing ability maintenance class.
No longer a melee class? What?

Did you not use any PDK abilities before the update?


Not to mention: Everything else does some form of button pressing: Rogues/SDs/Assassins have stealth mode, potentially parry, SD abilities, potentially traps, knockdown, expertise. Barbarians have rage, taunt, knockdown. expertise, power attack, maybe disarm. Monks have expertise, flurry of blows, stunning fist, knockdown. Bards in all forms have around 10 buttons to press, ditto paladins and CoTs. Pretty much the only melee class that don't are totem druids and WMs, and even they turn improved expertise on, live in it, and throw out a knockdown occasionally.
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Ramza
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Ramza » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:46 pm

Crag, I would not complain too harshly about the PDK change tbh. They're still strong, and if their stuff stacks like advertised then they can be hilariously broken in PvP and PvE. They're just in the place that the Old Mememaster had.

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Iceborn
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Iceborn » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:03 am

Hunter548 wrote:
CragOrion wrote:Except with this update, PDK is no longer a melee class. It's a button-mashing ability maintenance class.
No longer a melee class? What?

Did you not use any PDK abilities before the update?


Not to mention: Everything else does some form of button pressing: Rogues/SDs/Assassins have stealth mode, potentially parry, SD abilities, potentially traps, knockdown, expertise. Barbarians have rage, taunt, knockdown. expertise, power attack, maybe disarm. Monks have expertise, flurry of blows, stunning fist, knockdown. Bards in all forms have around 10 buttons to press, ditto paladins and CoTs. Pretty much the only melee class that don't are totem druids and WMs, and even they turn improved expertise on, live in it, and throw out a knockdown occasionally.
I believe the problem is with the duration here, and not the actual micromanagement.

I'm okay with maneuvers and stances as they are (KD, disarm, parry, expertise, etc), but otherwise, I like my abilities to come in two sets of duration:
Short-lived, with a good burst in power (ie: divine might, blackstaff, EDK, shadow daze, etc)
Or long-lived, and without having to worry about them (bard song with everlasting winspiration, any hours/level spell).

These abilities, from what I've seen in the glimpse, fall in a very annoying in-between where you have to reuse the skills every six minutes or so to properly employ all the tools of the class.
From a purely mechanical perspective, I usually aim to be comfortable with my build, and this is the kind of thing that, if I wanted to play a knight, would make me play one without taking the class at all.

That in the glimpse. I'll give it a more throughout read... later.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:11 am

Regarding the irritation of having to reapply short-duration buffs, I don't disagree, but that hasn't changed with this update, since the base durations are identical to what they were before. The only characters hugely affected by this will be those with 20 levels of bard who had grabbed lasting inspiration.

If it helps, think of them as abilities you pop in sticky situations, not buffs that have to be kept up constantly/used every fight.
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Peppermint
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Peppermint » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:57 am

FWIW, we'd received a request to rework this class a few months ago (shortly after implementation). The initial plan was simply to tweak the initial version, but after some short time busying ourselves with the numbers, it became clear the class was in need of a total overhaul.

That PDK was in the pipeline for a rework was no secret. We'd mentioned it a few times on the forums and repeatedly on other channels. If your grievance is that we weren't even more open about it, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

However, we'd designed the class with the impression that rebuilds would be offered ala Feylocks. Gone is the INT scaling. Gone is the bard song scaling. And now there are prerequisites which, as noticed, will conflict with existing characters. It maintains the thematics of the old class (or so we hope!), but builds are different.

Hold on and wait for an official admin response. I wouldn't panic just yet.

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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Karris the Anarchist » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:44 am

I know I'm gonna start lobbying for three PDK protectors as permanent bodyguard for my conlock.

Unless, of course, the shield doesn't stack. Which it really shouldn't because as unlikely as it might be, 100% DI to everything doesn't seem like something that should be in the game. :lol:
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hoshi
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by hoshi » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:02 am

I'll be curious to see what this will get paired with now that the ability score requirements are mostly gone or easy to reach and abilities are on CD as opposed to x/day.

I could see some dex based setups really benefiting from Valiant's Oath of Wrath/Rallying Cry as you could add up to +3 attack and +14 to damage (11 of that ignoring DR/DI unless they have a rare resistance to magic damage). So you could have epic dodge, high AC, and still do some pretty good non-crit damage at least.

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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:11 am

If anyone is curious about when PDK changes were "semi-officially announced", see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14306

It also contains future classes/mechanics that could see tinkering. Consult often! (I try my best to gather all off-handed comments made on the forums)

I really dig the new Knight class. As a brief aside, this sounds super dumb, I know, but can we change the VALIANT or the VANGUARD to something that doesn't start with a "V"? It can be confusing to navigate/distinguish the three paths when two of the names are so awfully similar. It would be a small QoL change that would be greatly appreciated.

Quick questions-
1) Am I reading it correctly that only the Valiant has a direct mechanical connection an attribute score, that being CHA?

2) Does "friendly target" for Ward encapsulate summons/companions/henchmen? Do they have to be in your party?

3) Is the main "theme" of this class to be a kind of off-tank/melee support controller? While Crag does say it's become a "button masher", those 1.5 Turn cooldowns seem to remove the Knight from being your tank/DPS, to some kind of "midfielder" because I imagine you want to keep those abilities up all night long.
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Cortex
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Cortex » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:20 am

1) Directly, yes. There are stats you'd benefit from scaling up, like a protector with EDRIII to be tanky himself while making someone else tanky.

3) The main theme is that it sacrifices some DPS and a class slot for support abilities. It can still be played very aggressively, especially with the +11 damage bonus or vulnerabilities/debuffs, but they excel with at least one other person.

Some ideas(that I'm just throwing up in the air without going in depth):

Barbarian/Protector for super tankiness.
Barbarian/Vanguard for DPS/debuff (rage+taunt+oath of wrath).
Bard/Valiant for super party buffs.
Bard/Vanguard for super debuffs.
Fighter/Any PDK variant for an all rounder with plenty of feats to spare.
Paladin/Valiant divine might/shield.
:)

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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:06 am

A couple updates for everyone following this thread:
  • The Valiant bonus to Oath of Wrath should actually be 1 magic damage +1 per five Knight levels. This is an error in the changelog (my fault) and I'll ask AR to tweak the announcement post.
  • Heroic Shield will not be stacking with itself, so don't count on having multiple PDKs making a single target invulnerable.
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Ramza
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Ramza » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:56 am

Potential relevels for PDK but not Barb? What is this tomfoolery.

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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:13 pm

Ramza wrote:Potential relevels for PDK but not Barb? What is this tomfoolery.
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Peppermint
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Peppermint » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:01 pm

Ramza wrote:Potential relevels for PDK but not Barb? What is this tomfoolery.
Barbarian: Zero Requirement Melee Class with CON Scaling and Rage Feat/EDR Synergy -> Melee Class with CON Scaling and Rage Feat/EDR Synergy
PDK: Zero Requirement Melee Class with INT Scaling and Bard Song Feat Synergy -> BAB/Feat-Prerequisite Melee Class with CHA Scaling and No Bard Song Feat Synergy

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Baron Saturday
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:14 pm

Been messing around with the new PDK, and learned some interesting stuff about Heroic Shield.

First off, cooldowns seem to start when the abilities are activated, not when the effects wear off (not sure if that had been pointed out anywhere). The new Heroic Shield also applies a -guard effect to the Ward by default. This can be toggled off and on by targeting Heroic Shield at the Ward while its effects are still active. The Ward benefits from improved effects of other PDK abilities regardless of if the PDK is -guarding them or not.

This is really really cool, because it means you can now -guard NPC party members. Got a squishy summon that deals high damage? No problem! Just be aware that if you yourself are squishy, you need to turn that -guard off after applying Heroic Shield.
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:08 am

Baron Saturday wrote:Been messing around with the new PDK, and learned some interesting stuff about Heroic Shield.

First off, cooldowns seem to start when the abilities are activated, not when the effects wear off (not sure if that had been pointed out anywhere). The new Heroic Shield also applies a -guard effect to the Ward by default. This can be toggled off and on by targeting Heroic Shield at the Ward while its effects are still active. The Ward benefits from improved effects of other PDK abilities regardless of if the PDK is -guarding them or not.

This is really really cool, because it means you can now -guard NPC party members. Got a squishy summon that deals high damage? No problem! Just be aware that if you yourself are squishy, you need to turn that -guard off after applying Heroic Shield.
This was a feature that was omitted from the changelog since we were still sifting through some related bugs on test servers. It looks, however, like it's working as intended live. Let us know if you run into any issues with it.

The Heroic Shield acts in addition to the -guard command, so a PDK can effectively guard two party members.

On a related note, Oath of Wrath does a similar effect for its duration. The targeted enemy mob will (should) refocus its efforts on the PDK, as if the PDK was -guard'ing everyone nearby.
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by TheRagingGoblin » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:16 pm

The class appears to be plenty of fun to play except for one thing.
1. HEROIC SHIELD
Standard Action
Duration and Cooldown of 1 Hour
After thinking about it this appears frustrating to use for what is intended to be a long duration buff to a single character. You'll be reapplying it every six real-life minutes and you can only do so once it has expired. The player will also be using it again every time it's refreshed to remove the guard if they don't wish to use it.

It can even happen (and it will eventually) that it'll end when it's most needed and/or at a time when the PDK is using their other abilities to buff the ward during a combat. PDKs will get into the habit of waiting for the timer before fighting starts to ensure that doesn't happen.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:35 pm

Heroic Shield seems to be acting as an instant action for me, so reapplying isn't exactly a big deal. There's also messages warning you when it's about to run out.
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:14 pm

Heroic Shield is meant to be a low maintenance ability. It's currently easy to re-apply, as noted, but it's a fair point that the duration is a little low, currently. I'll see about extending it in a future update.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:33 pm

If you extend the duration, will you keep the cooldown at 1 hour so that the heroic shield target can still be changed?
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:If you extend the duration, will you keep the cooldown at 1 hour so that the heroic shield target can still be changed?
Likely. It's already coded to remove its effects from the previous target, though it's a moot point at the moment given the duration and cooldown are identical.
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Zavandar » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:45 pm

What happens when a -guarded pdk uses oath or wrath, or has their heroic shield on someone? Does it act like the old chain guard, or just do nothing?
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:11 pm

Zavandar wrote:What happens when a -guarded pdk uses oath or wrath, or has their heroic shield on someone? Does it act like the old chain guard, or just do nothing?
Only one applies at any given time. In order of priority: -guard > Heroic Shield > Oath of Wrath.

If someone using Oath of Wrath is guarded, the creature will prioritize the guard.
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Zavandar
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by Zavandar » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:08 pm

Okay, cool.

Another question (and thanks for the thorough answers). How would the following work:
Tank guards pdk, pdk heroic shields a third.

Does that form a guard chain? Is the last person in that chain just not guarded?

You might've already answered that and I just got the wrong takeaway. Apologies if that's the case.
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Re: The New PDK Changes

Post by yellowcateyes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:12 pm

Zavandar wrote:Okay, cool.

Another question (and thanks for the thorough answers). How would the following work:
Tank guards pdk, pdk heroic shields a third.

Does that form a guard chain? Is the last person in that chain just not guarded?

You might've already answered that and I just got the wrong takeaway. Apologies if that's the case.
If the creature wants to attack the PDK, it will instead attack the tank. If it wants to attack the third, it will instead attack the PDK. Only one relationship will apply at any given moment, so there's no chaining of guard effects - at least not in a single round.
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