Classes, resources, and balance

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Invader_Nym
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Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:32 am

I've been thinking about the problems I've been facing with arrows on my archer and realized it's part of a bigger problem that impacts multiple classes.

The primary resource a fighter spends in battle is hit-points. He can buy healing kits to replenish his pool of hit points anywhere.

Imagine for a moment what the game would be like if the fighter had to craft his healing kits, or had to buy his healing kits from player shops.

This is essentially the reality for my archer, who has to craft the thing he spends in battle (arrows) or buy them from other PC vendors.

This is, as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) also the case for spell-casters, who have to craft/buy-from-pc-vendors the thing they spend, which is spell components.

I think it's a fundamental balance issue, and one that just adds to the chore-centric nature of Arelith, that certain classes must waste time in the crafting menus to be functional, while other classes don't.

I think that we should adhere to one standard for all the classes when it comes to these fundamental resources. Either they should all be accessible in shops, or they should all be acquired through trades.

What do you think?

Discuss.

Ozzy.nl
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Ozzy.nl » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:38 am

Actually it tends to generate a amount of rp and that is why things are the way they are. Maybe it is not direct rp to those needing them but concider the crafting RP and sending out someone to gather it all. Or some thing as simple as someone taking orders to craft these items.

But if you look at pure game mechanics for the acher there are specific paths that can give you all the arrows you need. Simple arrows are also on sale by npc shops. As for spell components I'd love to see them in a npc shop as well. But that would take away the gold sink for a mage.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:44 am

I think that we can benefit from the roleplay generated by trades through repairs and non-consumable trade items. That is to say, we can enjoy that benefit even if we were to shift these consumables out of trades and into NPC shops.

Actually what I think we should be doing is having these consumables available in NPC shops, but having them available cheaper and at larger quantities when you craft them. In this way we still incentivize crafting/crafters but we don't force players into that option.

Kirito
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Kirito » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:54 am

Er, correct me if I'm wrong.... but isn't the not as good/weaker version of bundles - namely arrows - available all over the server? It's like getting a bundle with 1 charge...

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flower
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by flower » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:40 am

Fighters do buy kits from players. Much cheaper.

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gilescorey
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by gilescorey » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:54 am

Arrow crafting is hell. It needs to be overhauled.

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Twily
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Twily » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:06 am

Kirito wrote:Er, correct me if I'm wrong.... but isn't the not as good/weaker version of bundles - namely arrows - available all over the server? It's like getting a bundle with 1 charge...
Sadly this doesn't quite hold up too well, due to how bundles work with essences. I do wish it were the case, that moderate arrows could be acquired so easily.
A bundle with 1 charge is a lot better than a stack of arrows, since a bundle allows you to apply a temporary essence for extra lasting damage on the arrows.

The only (cheap) way I've found to get a sustainable supply of moderate arrows is to have ranger levels and the path that lets you make bundles

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AnselHoenheim
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by AnselHoenheim » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:17 am

You can always produce your own bronze bundles either if you pick carpentry or forging, and produce your own bundles, the DC is not as painful as their iron/steel/damask counterpart and it only consumes 1 point of crafting...

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:35 am

Would be nice if merchants sold bronze arrow/bolt bundles.
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FoxyPigeon
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by FoxyPigeon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:59 am

On a side note; dart/shuriken/axe bundles still don't exist. :(

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Peppermint
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Peppermint » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:11 pm

gilescorey wrote:Arrow crafting is hell. It needs to be overhauled.
Concur.

Archers are pretty powerful -- but nobody actually plays them, because they're an inordinate pain in the rump to play.

Maybe were bundles less of an absolute pain, we'd have an actual arrow economy since there would be a meaningful number of archers on the server? That would be nice.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:17 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:Imagine for a moment what the game would be like if the fighter had to craft his healing kits, or had to buy his healing kits from player shops.
I will point out that the cost of healing was more than doubled by the changes to enchanting (no more heal skill on gear), and appraise (no more cheap kits in shops). I'm not saying it is anything like as bad as the annoyance/cost of being an archer, but it does make maintaining a healthy bank balance far far harder as a melee character - Especially one that has lower AC... And this happened at roughly the same sort of time as suddenly MD weapons became a ton more expensive by requiring mithril and adamantine to construct. Being a mundane character is expensive.

Crafting arrows absolutely should be cheaper and less annoying, though... I wholeheartedly agree. Gievn I am currently playing someone is not an archer - but is a smith surrounded by archers - PLEASE HAVE MERCY ON MY CRAFTING POINTS.
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Baseili
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Baseili » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:57 pm

Speaking as a smith, I've considered selling the bags of arrowheads so that archers/crossbow users can make their own bundles without needing to sink 25 points in carpentry. The trouble is, in order to break even I'd need to charge around 500 - 600 gold just for bronze arrowheads when someone of the Archer path can simply generate them for free and price them however they'd like due to no consumption of resources.

Personally I'd say tie basic ammo generation to the weapon focus feat (for all ranged weapons) and remove them from crafting altogether, or replace them with special types that can only be crafted.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:26 pm

AnselHoenheim wrote:You can always produce your own bronze bundles either if you pick carpentry or forging, and produce your own bundles, the DC is not as painful as their iron/steel/damask counterpart and it only consumes 1 point of crafting...

It's not that hard if you know where to search!
It's total hell. It took me 30-45 minutes to make two bronze bundles, one of which I blew up in the basin. I haven't got the strength to haul around a ton of tin, copper, and coal.

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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Bashagain » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:43 pm

This thread should be retitled to “Opportunity in the Arrows Market.”

Wanna get rich?! Of course you do! There’s a growing demand in the archery industry on Areith!
With an investment of just 10,000 gold, you too can be on your way to become filthy rich by servicing the archery industry! It’s simple! Make arrows. Sell them to archers for cheap! Specialize your brand so that the archers all over the island trusts you. The archery industry on Arelith needs YOU, merchant!
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:55 pm

There's also what they call in economics the transaction cost, which is the cost of constantly having to scramble from shop, to shop, to shop, to shop, trying to find one that sells arrows.

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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:00 pm

The people that actually do sell arrow bundles in shops are generally Rangers with the Archer path, who auto-generate arrow bundles as a path feature.
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StumpyParagon
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by StumpyParagon » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:46 am

I rather like the entire current arrow set up.. our bows do not have durability and instead of repairing it we make arrows.

Currently our arrows take a lot to craft but I think it's balanced enough. Considering the amount of arrows we can hunt down for free from monsters. At the moment I mostly just make essences which are very easy to make due to there being a lot of crofters selling them cheap.

But as a good drow I imagine it's a lot harder for you. You could find yourself a dealer.. I have a few and there are a lot of blacksmiths in this world.

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Durvayas
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Durvayas » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:45 am

As a smith. I don't make arrow bundles. Its too much of an agony to bother.

I make the drow only vloz'kalitz bolts, but only because I'm one of two people who can. Even then, they barely sell, because surprise, nobody plays ranged because ammo is a pain to make, and they only craft in sets of 99, which is, in and of itself, a pain.

Make GOOD ammo easier to get, you'll see more ranged focused characters. With a better market, maybe it would be worth making arrows, but as is, its NEVER worth making arrows, because someone with the archer path will just come along and undercut you by a good 5k or so because it costs them nothing to make ammo.
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Norfildor
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Norfildor » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:49 am

I have played an AA before and from my experience things start to seem much less grim once you let go of the obsessive compulsion to use the best available arrows 24/7. There is solid ammunition to be found among loot drops readily throughout the module - you do not need to use a 4x enchanted damask arrow bundle with a temp essence applied to it at all times in order to be viable. Especially in PvE. If you PvP so often that you are struggling to manage your most powerful ammo then the problem lies somewhere else than with the arrow bundle crafting requirements.

Kirito
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Kirito » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 am

When I played my AA, i was using +2Perm esscence (crafting myself) and d6 esscence bought from *FOIG* that wasn't too traumatic on anything.

However I don't think the d6 esscences are available, and the +2 aren't anymore either, so that really pushes up the cost.

Arrows/bows really are due a revisit.

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-XXX-
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by -XXX- » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:13 pm

I often find temp essences that are better than +1d6 in loot.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:05 pm

Kirito wrote:However I don't think the d6 esscences are available, and the +2 aren't anymore either, so that really pushes up the cost.
+2 perma essenses can be found in loot.

However, the place you were getting the 1d6 temps, no longer sells 1d6 temps. As far as I am aware the only place you can reliably get 1d6 temps now is in the UD.
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Kirito
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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Kirito » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:15 pm

Getting perm +2 will never keep up with demand. Crafting them is the only way with archers.

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Re: Classes, resources, and balance

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:34 pm

What happens if we standardize arrow crafting by:

1 - eliminate arrowheads/shafts, and you instead just craft "Arrow Bundle" via Carpentry or Smithing
2 - Arrow Bundles receive variation if you use gems (a la corresponding to essences), at a higher DC, in either Carpentry or Smithing. Nothing would go higher than +2 elemental damage

i.e. the new item looks like,

ingredients: X, + emerald
product: Acid Iron Arrow Bundle (+1)

etc,

sidenote: why the hell did we add the "Feedback" subforum if General Discussion still gets plagued with these kinds of discussions?
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