Making double sword finessable

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Giftstoff
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Making double sword finessable

Post by Giftstoff » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:31 am

As the title, I think this weapon really needs the Katana treatment, offering SOME reason to ever take it as a weapon.

Thoughts?

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Cortex
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Cortex » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:00 am

The weapon is fine.
:)

TimeAdept
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:51 am

How so? It precludes weapon finesse (but still needs 9 ranger, 15 dex, or half orc), does less damage than katanas, and you can't swap to sword and board if things get hairy. You get 2 AB for it, and only need 1 essence instead of two but you trade all of the above. What's better about it, or any of the double weapons for that matter? Is there something I'm missing?

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Cortex
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Cortex » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:56 am

It serves the niche for rangers and half orcs. The +2 AB and large size also make it great for disarm. It's not as good as scimitar or kukri stuff but it's decent for the above.
:)

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Giftstoff
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Giftstoff » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:39 am

Cortex wrote:It's not as good as scimitar or kukri stuff but it's decent for the above.
Why is this always the standard response lately? Why is nothing allowed to be as "good" as those two weapons? Just being unable to use a shield is a huge disadvantage by your own words, as well as having worse crits and requiring 4 feats to use.

Moving a few more weapons into the spotlight besides scimmy/rapier/kukri/scythe would add a lot more refreshing variety.

Kirito
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Kirito » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:48 am

Because maybe it's those weapons that are the problem, not the other 95%?

(Just guessing)

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Lorkas
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Lorkas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:50 am

I think that's the consensus, but there also hasn't been any movement on bringing scimitar and rapier into line with the rest of the weapons.

Kukri is fine I think. It requires a great and is super easy to disarm.

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Giftstoff
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Giftstoff » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:03 am

Kirito wrote:Because maybe it's those weapons that are the problem, not the other 95%?

(Just guessing)
Im all for starting a serious movement to bring them in line. Theres been a half dozen really good suggestions to make weapons aside from those more viable.

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Iceborn
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Iceborn » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:32 am

Just speaking of double-sided weapons...


All of them are relatively subpar and lack the versatility of being able to be used with shields.
Not to mention, you still need to burn an exotic feat into them.
As STR weapons, they are particularly awkward to use since only rangers and half-orcs get ambidexterity, which requires a 15 dex investment otherwise. Too much hassle for a gain that is honestly more thematic than mechanic.

I don't see why not make them finesseable. If anything, it allows for more build flexibility with a weapon that is not remarkably powerful to begin with.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:49 am

They're pretty bad even for ranger, since you're stuck with light armor on a strength build.
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Punished Hans
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Punished Hans » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:30 am

Giftstoff wrote:
Kirito wrote:Because maybe it's those weapons that are the problem, not the other 95%?

(Just guessing)
Im all for starting a serious movement to bring them in line. Theres been a half dozen really good suggestions to make weapons aside from those more viable.
Nerfing the dreaded 18-20 weapons nerfs melees in general

It doesn't really make a difference in direct competition between melees, since you'll be seeing high AC duels here where you can't really confirm those higher range crits, anyways.

The only thing this would ensure, is to bring the users of optimal weapons on the same level as the other weapons against low AC targets (e.g. casters), which serves... which purpose exactly?



Tbh, I like the approach so far, to incentivise the use of """unoptimal""" weapons; By adding the moonblade and the runic waraxe, a niche for use of these weapons has opened up. I'd rather see the devs continuing down this path.

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flower
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by flower » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:15 pm

The way to go are special weapons done from these relative sub optimal weapons. Howerver UMd requirment is almost always so high that they will never be largely spread.

TimeAdept
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:08 pm

What might be interesting to see is if the double-sided weapons received a bonus to their offhand damage equal to 1/2 the weilder's STR, effectively making them a way to dual weild while getting full STR to both hands, instead of 1/2 strength. This would be a nice buff, and also cement them as "That weapon Orcs and Rangers really like to use, since they can access dual weilding without the dex requirement, meaning they have more Strength to benefit from the offhand boost."

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Opustus
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Opustus » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:01 pm

I am totally impartial as a fan of Final Fantasy 9, but I don't see any balance implications with the suggested update: DEX characters should still be using a shield for toe-to-toe combat, the double-sword could work as a gimmick to increase your out-of-stealth burst, but even still the minor buff would still be situational and, in my humbledore, overshadowed by the AC bonus from sword-and-boarding.

While we're at it, might I suggest the following suggestions full of flavonoids:
-Doublemace: make it work with Monk UBAB for some kewl STR monks
-Doubleaxe: if possible, make mainhand attacks damage 1.5 STR and offhand attacks 1.0 STR; if not possible, increase the base weapon damage
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Griefmaker
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:25 pm

It would be awesome if double weapons could have a shield AC bonus equal to that of the enhancement bonus of the weapon. It could reflect the weapons being used to parry blows and so on.

But I think weapons can only allow deflection AC on them. Still, that might be something too, so that a helm slot could be used for other things.

Kirito
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Kirito » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:03 pm

Griefmaker wrote:It would be awesome if double weapons could have a shield AC bonus equal to that of the enhancement bonus of the weapon. It could reflect the weapons being used to parry blows and so on.

But I think weapons can only allow deflection AC on them. Still, that might be something too, so that a helm slot could be used for other things.
Or, you know, a bonus to parry;)

liver and bones
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by liver and bones » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:22 pm

Kirito wrote:
Griefmaker wrote:It would be awesome if double weapons could have a shield AC bonus equal to that of the enhancement bonus of the weapon. It could reflect the weapons being used to parry blows and so on.

But I think weapons can only allow deflection AC on them. Still, that might be something too, so that a helm slot could be used for other things.
Or, you know, a bonus to parry;)
Every X amount of parry you get Y amount of shield AC up to a max of +5.

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Iceborn
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Iceborn » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 am

Kirito wrote:
Griefmaker wrote:It would be awesome if double weapons could have a shield AC bonus equal to that of the enhancement bonus of the weapon. It could reflect the weapons being used to parry blows and so on.

But I think weapons can only allow deflection AC on them. Still, that might be something too, so that a helm slot could be used for other things.
Or, you know, a bonus to parry;)

I'm not a fan of how parry works.
I took it with my character, and it's just...
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh...
Not for me.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:25 am

If parry could actually block attacks up to your max, and not just one attack per flurry, effectively capping you at 3 parries despite being a monk with 8, it might be worth using. If it also didn't ignore 20's, and actually made your attacks at highest BAB, it also might be worth using. At the moment though, the skill is just functionally absolutely broken unless you're fighting only 1 opponent with 3 attacks or less. So... unhasted spellswords, or unbuffed clerics, or something.

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Cortex
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:31 am

Parry is situational, and especially useful in mix ups in 1v1 duels.
:)

TimeAdept
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:03 am

Losing probably 4 of your 7 attacks to still get hit by 1-3 of theirs still at a decreasing attack bonus and not working if they roll 20's (which is the biggest threat to high AC or IE'ing characters to begin with, something parry doesn't help with) is not situational or useful for mixups. It's objectively worse than just plowing through then 7 times a round hasted, or 5 if you're clever, not using double weapons, and just pull out a shield for 5-6 more AC, which might let you use normal expertise instead of improved and instantly gain 5 AB.

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Commie
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Commie » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:19 am

Cortex wrote:Parry is situational, and especially useful in mix ups in 1v1 duels.
How is it a mixup? Won't you just get hit more and attack less? Or is that the mixup like a 'sandbag' strat?

edit;

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Parry

So you need to roll 10 higher then their attack roll, you can't expertise while doing it, but you're basically capped at 3 attacks per round?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:21 am

To expand on Cortex's point: Parry is situationally useful
if you invest heavily in it. You need somewhere on the order of 60+ parry at level 30 just to be able to block reliably. That said, a Dex character geared for parry can hit over 70, and that's without skill focus or improved parry. Add in epic dodge and you can pretty much ignore anyone with four or fewer APR. Also note that while parry doesn't work on 20s, it CAN prevent the threat confirmation roll. Finally, there's the Arelith changes to parry, where ripostes get +5 AB and a portion of your parry skill as extra damage (~23 for the 70+ build mentioned above). This wrecks in 1v1 duels, at least until your opponent pulls a gonne on you - at which point you turn parry off and go for the face again. It's a style that takes some getting used to, but having fought it I can confirm that it can be very effective.

That said, what does this have to do with twinblades? With them as a strength weapon, I don't see them being a parrying character's weapon of choice!
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Giftstoff
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Giftstoff » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:10 am

Allowing it to be finessable AND adding in some unique variants to the weapon would help. Being able to parry with it would be neat, but currently STR base makes that infeasible.

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Peppermint
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Re: Making double sword finessable

Post by Peppermint » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am

There are already plans for a lot of weapons going forward. Many of those involve offering alternatives that are stronger than available scimitars/rapiers (e.g. Moonblades).

No, double weapons won't be made finessable.

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