WoF

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:36 pm

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14583
What's your take on this? The blinding effect I could tolerate (it's a high lvl spell after all), but the unlimitted dismissal effect that does not offer any save can be rather tilting. Any character with 1 rank in UMD can counter EDK and Mummy Dust along side any summoning spells, easily and repeatedly, without any limitations to the HD of unsummoned creatures simply by point clicking on either the caster or the summons. The only measure to counter this tactic ATM is having high SR applied to both the caster and the summons, which pretty much limits it to clerics and druids, not mentioning that the tempo requirements to this are unreasonable.

The banishment spell offers both a save to the summons and is limited by a maximum potential sum of the HD of unsummoned creatures (not mentionning that unlike WoF it also affects allied summons). WoF is without any limitations whatsoever and it is one-sided. Banishemt is a lvl 7 wizard spell, WoF is a lvl 7 cleric spell.

IMO adding a DC to at least the unsummoning part of the spell would be a logical step towards achieving overal balance. Not mentionning after reading the spell description, it shouldn't affect undead summons, but it does.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: WoF

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:48 pm

No. Cleric doesn't got nearly enough useful spells like other casters. And WoF scrolls won't work vs high SR summons.
:)

Cerk Evermoore
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:30 am

Re: WoF

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:50 pm

A lot of people who I asked about WoF mechanics gave me a lot of mixed responses. How exactly does one use it to remove EDK? Do you use it on the caster or the summon? Can it remove 3 vampires and EDK in a single cast?

It unsummons stuff with no dc check? Sorry if it seems I am bringing this a little off topic but I feel we could give better feedback with proper understanding of the spell.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: WoF

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:51 pm

It will unsummon all summons that don't have SR or aren't henchmen (none that I can think of right now). Vs SR it rolls caster/scroll CL vs the monsters SR.
:)

User avatar
gilescorey
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: WoF

Post by gilescorey » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Cortex wrote:aren't henchmen (none that I can think of right now)
TRIBAL BARB BABY

WOF IMMUNITY SINCE 1967

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:58 pm

Just had an EDK dispelled by a WoF scroll, so the argument that scrolls won't work against high SR summons doesn't apply I'm afraid.

Cortex: only EDK and otsiders like demons, devils, slaads and celestials do have SR. EDK having the maximum SR that NWN allows to be put on a creature skin (SR32). So the number of summons the WoF unsummon effects catches is huuuge.


I'd still suggest to make this spell at least unscribable and/or limit the HD of the unsummoned creatures (so that you just don't casually dispel a dozen of vamires just because your character has 1 rank in UMD and undead have 0 SR). Not mentionning that following the spell description the spell banishes summoned creatures to their home planes, so it should not work on undead at all in the first place.
Last edited by -XXX- on Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: WoF

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:02 pm

Scrolls can unsummon EDKs on a lucky roll, or it may have been breached/disjunctioned to reduce its SR. Either way, its not impossible, it just takes luck or some effort.
:)

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:04 pm

Vamps/ Dread Mummies shouldn't have such cheap counter either IMO. (we're pitting an epic feat vs 1 rank in UMD here). BG undead summons do have SR for example.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: WoF

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:07 pm

Use Create (Greater) Undead first to force them to pop the WoF.
:)

Quoth

Re: WoF

Post by Quoth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:08 pm

the spell is fair tbh. it doesn't stop you resummoning summons like dismissal and that has a save and it doesn't ignore SR of your summons. if you are troubling against WoF scrolls then increase the UMD requirement but nerfing clerics seems over zealous.

User avatar
gilescorey
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: WoF

Post by gilescorey » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:11 pm

-XXX- wrote:Vamps/ Dread Mummies shouldn't have such cheap counter either IMO. (we're pitting an epic feat vs 1 rank in UMD here). BG undead summons do have SR for example.
Quoth wrote:the spell is fair tbh. it doesn't stop you resummoning summons like dismissal and that has a save and it doesn't ignore SR of your summons. if you are troubling against WoF scrolls then increase the UMD requirement but nerfing clerics seems over zealous.
mage players vs cleric players.jpg

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:14 pm

Cortex wrote:Use Create (Greater) Undead first to force them to pop the WoF.
There's no limit to the amount of WoF scrolls that you can carry. Give Vamps/Mummies SR to lower the reliability of them being removed by the scroll, please? ^.^

Quoth

Re: WoF

Post by Quoth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:26 pm

cast other spells, I'm not happy about timestop scrolls or mords scrolls but I don't ask for the spell to be nerfed. it's a counter to summons, know how you deal with it? don't summon use other magic. You're a mage you've got a lot more magic to hurl at people.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: WoF

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:42 pm

Technically no limit to Create Undead scrolls either.
:)

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: WoF

Post by flower » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:52 pm

It serves as counter to over boosted summons. You got Dragon dispelled? Life sucks get over it not only yours got WoFed.

This is one of last useful offensive spell on cleric.

Btw what needs nerf is not WoF but vampires + nef ene burst allowing to solo bosses.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:01 pm

Quoth wrote:cast other spells
Like what? I've yet to PvP someone whose saves wouldn't be higher than the DC of my character's spells. Unlike clerics, arcane mages do not have the luxury of going "if this fails, can always go div power+div favor and slam". So yeah, summons are the way mages can play the fundamentals (HP, AC, DPS) and with the ridiculous amount of HP characters can have now, the IGMS combo serves more as a finisher than a way to kill PCs outright.

I see the reason behind leaving WoF be for the sake of clerics not having many really useful spells (then again, I could argue that the handful of those useful ones are better than anything in the arcane arsenal - implosion/SoV/harm anyone?), but in that case make it cleric exclusive and not available for anyone to else use as an universal summon solvent in a form of a scribed scroll, regardless of their class or build. It's not like getting rid of the summons was the only way of defeating the mage in PvP.


IMO still either making the spell unscribable or giving all endgame summons high SR should be a thing.
Cortex wrote:Technically no limit to Create Undead scrolls either.
What you are suggesting is fighting a downhill battle of attrition here because the mage needs not only to keep using Create Greater Undead scrolls but also Resto scrolls as they get blinded in the process whereas their opposition can simply keep WoF scrolling the mage while having every second round to do as they please. But OK, if EDK has SR 32 to keep WoF scrolls from hurting it, why don't the mummy dust summons have it as well?

Quoth

Re: WoF

Post by Quoth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm

true seeing makes you ignore blindness so need for the restore scrolls

like time stop, mords, any other spell going that you have, GS, horrid wilting, acid sheath and so many others, your summons don't need buffing to stop 1 spell, you need to learn to use more than just summons for an engagement. and if you're hasted(as a caster most likely are as you intial spells during the encounter) you'll be casting more than they'll be using WoF scrolls.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:10 pm

I double dare you to make a mage character and test that theory in practice. You will share my viewpoint before sunday.

Quoth

Re: WoF

Post by Quoth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:14 pm

i've had a lvl 30 pure sorc. I never used summons and I won 90% of the PvP encounters that character had he wasn't even discipline dumped or anything else like that.
Last edited by Quoth on Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: WoF

Post by JediMindTrix » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:15 pm

-XXX- wrote:I double dare you to make a mage character and test that theory in practice. You will share my viewpoint before sunday.
I play a conjuration based wizard and I do not share your viewpoint.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: WoF

Post by susitsu » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:22 pm

Lol what kind of mages are you people. Why don't you carry five WoF scrolls on you?

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:26 pm

OFC we do! I'm arguing against this being a thing. But apparently mages are fair and balanced because their ability to stomp lowbies 90% of the time has been empirically proven.

Srsly now, timestop and Mords are hardly exclusive to mages, acid sheath is a reactive measure that works only in case your opponent doesn't know what they are doing and cannot outDPS it, the damage output of direct damage spells is inferior to melee/AA ranged attacks (that suggested flashy horrid wilting equals the DPS of someone doing 25 dmg per attack and is not unlike a maxed blade barrier) and CC effects are highly unreliable because the saves of most epic characters with relevant builds are, between spellcraft dumps, artefacts and enchanted gear simply too high and -pray is a thing too.

I tried doing things your way and it simply doesn't work and my mage has high primary caster stat combined with spell foci, so the DC of the spells she can hurl is not that low.

I honestly don't see the issue with the notion that high tier summons should not be casually dispellable by anyone with UMD.
Last edited by -XXX- on Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hunter548
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:40 am

Re: WoF

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:43 pm

I gotta be honest, this seems like a "My summon has some counterplay to it, please remove the counterplay element" sort of suggestion.

Without WoF getting rid of vampires/EDK, there's very little counter to them. Vampires, you can resummon with some preparation. EDK requires someone with UMD to use two scrolls to get rid of it, standing there for two rounds while they do so, and even then isn't a guarantee.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
Anime Sword Fighter wrote: I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: WoF

Post by -XXX- » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:02 pm

Hunter548 wrote:I gotta be honest, this seems like a "My summon has some counterplay to it, please remove the counterplay element" sort of suggestion.
It's not as much that as the counterplay appearing to be far too easily obtainable and far too foolproof. In the case of vampires it works as a 100% reliable solution even though there is already another spell that can instantly destroy them (for no other than lore reasons) - even that spell offers them a save, but this doesn't. Also, have I mentionned that WoF lists in it's description that it "returns summonned creatures back to their home plane" - by logic this should not affect undead at all (and it did not use to work on them either because before they used to be henchmen - not that I'd complain about their change to being summons, but it left them with this one glaring weakness).

In a way this is not akin to a scroll that would make you 100% immune to slashing damage, and if someone asked whether it is not too powerful, the reply would be "you are relying too heavily on your gimmick, swap weapons - your weapon master can swing a mace just as easily as they can swing their scimitar... or use a mord scroll to dispel it"

User avatar
Hunter548
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:40 am

Re: WoF

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:14 pm

And if you add a save to the summon removal, suddenly those spells are 100% reliable and there's no counterplay against them for anyone not a cleric or a wizard. One of the options just happens to benefit you and your character.

You can always cast another summon spell if you're that reliant on summons in PvP. Making it so you have to fish for ones to do anything to summons swings things too far towards mages.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
Anime Sword Fighter wrote: I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls.

Locked