Skill point economy

[SwampFoot]

It's always been my opinion that skill dumping serves PvP more than anything else.

The base game can be won with 30 AC and a gimped build (I did it with a str based Halfling rogue two-handing a longsword). Most of Arelith can be beaten with a well-formed group without skill-dumping (I've done most areas of Arelith on a pure barb with a pure druid).

Skill dumping allows one to forego the group dynamic and run solo to a great many areas successfully. And in PvP the dipper has the obvious advantage. Both of these are fine if that's what you aim for, but for me, I like a group dynamic. PvP is always better in groups. Adventuring alone becomes a boring grind to the top without it. And as said years before "Arelith is not a one player game".

No one ~needs~ to maximize every skill to be successful on Arelith.

[Morderon]

If I were building a nwn server from scratch:

Tumble would be removed. To much of a pain balancing PvE when similar builds have up to 6/8 AC difference. Much rather give AC in other ways if necessary (class abilities/gearing options).


Craft trap/weapon/armor into one, or two if one is over powered, skills that compliment whatever crafting the server has. For arelith crafting this could mean an increase in dailies (as it is), a lowering of dcs, and the ability to create items with less than 50 gp value without daily point usage.

Search + disable trap -> Risk becoming a single skill. If I felt like making alternative systems to how either worked and if they couldn't stand on their own.

Set trap + disable trap -> remain separate but higher synergy


Hide + MS -> Into a single skill called stealth.

Spot + listen -> Into a single skill called detect.

Perform -> Risk removal unless if it can stand without bard song. If removed bard song won't require perform.

Discipline + spellcraft -> have hard coded components so they remain.

[Xuuldar]

It allows you to get AC without being trash (tumble).

It allows you to build cleric who can withstand melee feats and excel in melee without being dispelled by lesser dispel.

That you have chosen to not see the possibilities and how much flexible it allows for RP building, is merely your choice.

And i really do not get that argument why WM who lives in world overfilled with magic should be unable to learn how TO READ a Scroll and free spell imbued to it. He is not casting it anyway.

But it matters not. NWN is based on sklil dumping and multiclassing, you don't like it? Then go play something else, there is no other help.

My intent is not to get your knickers in a twist. I have no issue with power building. All I am saying is that roleplay is about story and bringing a character to life and power building has little to do with that. Doing a class dip to get 6AC is generally an OOC decision you are making to make your character more powerful. You as the player want your character to have 6 more AC, not your character has decided they want to be an acrobat. You as the player want to be able to use a timestop scroll to win PVP not for the story of your character.

[Lorkas]

Sometimes stories call for formidable villains and powerful heroes, and it's pretty hard to RP either of those from a position of weakness.

[hoshi]

The RP ramifications that comes from PvP is generally in the hands of the one who lost, not the winner. They can almost completely ignore it, have it start a saga of conflict, cause it to be the final death of their character, etc. And probably a lot of that decision will hinge on how engaging the RP was around that fight as opposed to the particulars of the fight itself. If the lead up was:

PC1: Knock Knock
PC2: Who's there?
PC1: Knockdown

Probably the ramifications for the fight are going to go towards the "ignore" category.

Good RP does not come from powerbuilding, nor does it come from "anti-powerbuilding".

---

To the OP, I've played some games that have a pool of "non-combat skillpoints" that can only be spent on certain non-combat skills. So a character might get 2 bonus skillpoints a level but the server would check every other levelup that they had at least a total of 2 skillpoints a level spent in xyz set of skills. So points in ride are not competing with discipline, but instead with bluff.

[Ork]

The RP ramifications that comes from PvP is generally in the hands of the one who lost, not the winner.

Couldn't have said it better. PvP doesn't mean much if the loser doesn't build off it.

[cptcuddlepants]

To the OP, I've played some games that have a pool of "non-combat skillpoints" that can only be spent on certain non-combat skills. So a character might get 2 bonus skillpoints a level but the server would check every other levelup that they had at least a total of 2 skillpoints a level spent in xyz set of skills. So points in ride are not competing with discipline, but instead with bluff.

How well did that work out on those games? It does look like a good option - being able to know that you'll have a few skill points to toss into some "fun" skills, and if you want more, you can take points out of your combat skills to put into more "fun" skills.

A simple fix would be the method -XXX- proposed - giving more perks as you invest more into a non-combat skill, instead of having it be "X points or bust", but giving characters a few extra skillpoints that can only be used for non-combat skills would likely help too.

[hoshi]

It worked well for the games I saw it used in, but they had a clear difference between skill types. Probably the most troubling part would be determining if X skill should go in which category. Something like Open Lock could be argued to go in either category and too many skills being thrown in the "non-combat" skills would devalue higher skillpoint classes, though mitigated a bit by the fact that a lot might be cross class and not allowing you to save those particular points up to dump.

I think some form of what I proposed could go hand in hand with some skill boosts or rogue boosts for example, they don't have to be mutually exclusive ideas.

[Nitro]

The problem I have with those kinds of games, is that you can't sacrifice combat power for more utility. Sometimes it's nice to be able to make a skillmonkey that's kinda bad at fighting.

[flower]

.....

I about the Wheel, you about the Oxe.

There are things which demands sklil dumps. You cannot play a battlecleric of war oriented god without skill dump. Lets leave the build aside, the ability mix up classes allows you to toy build to your role play.

Restricting it to 3 in a row killed a lots of it. Dipping a level of shadowdacenr /X class to X build while retaining abilities to face off others allowed you to set up specific play (shadow mage/priest and like). It was removed to prevent OP builds but it also restricted how you can build around RP and not be fatal trashy thing in the end (because, going a battlecleric with low to none discipline means you die after first KD/disarm).

And to what you are attempting to imply, that I seek for powerbuild, makes me laugh. My cleric has no improved critical feat, has no weapon specialization, neither expertise. Instead i took things to support others...craft wand and alike.


IT is easy to say skill dumping is awful. If avarege AB was 30, sure, why not wear plain platemail and shield with no tumble. But when avarage AB is 40+ TUMBLE is neccesary. When there are spells meaning save-or-die spellcraft is neccesary (fear spell, all disable spells). Noone wants to keep dieing every single time an encounter goes hot. It has nothing with desire to win. The game will be no fun simple if you every time things go hot you die with no chance.

[hoshi]

The problem I have with those kinds of games, is that you can't sacrifice combat power for more utility. Sometimes it's nice to be able to make a skillmonkey that's kinda bad at fighting.

You still can, nothing stops you from putting your "combat points" in Underwater Basketweaving as well, you just have a small pool that gives you a little utility.

Basically you get some free points that can ONLY be spent in non-combat stuff, the combat points can be spent anywhere.

[Xuuldar]

And to what you are attempting to imply, that I seek for powerbuild, makes me laugh. My cleric has no improved critical feat, has no weapon specialization, neither expertise. Instead i took things to support others...craft wand and alike.

For the record, I am not implying anything about YOU. I have no idea who or what you play, nor do I care. This is general discussion and all I am trying to say is, playing a class, then choosing to dip rogue or bard and skill dump to get 6AC and UMD isn't about RP, it's about being a strong PVP'r. It may have an effect on your character's RP, but it is about the player, not the character.

As I said from the start, I am not advocating either way, I just disagree with RP being the justification. I know what I like and prefer but I know that every coin has two sides so I am not saying either way is good or bad. On one side it is nice to be able to mix things together to create cool builds, on the other hand it would be nice to be able to play a pure class and it not be gimped. To each his or her own.

[Baron Saturday]

For the record, I am not implying anything about YOU. I have no idea who or what you play, nor do I care. This is general discussion and all I am trying to say is, playing a class, then choosing to dip rogue or bard and skill dump to get 6AC and UMD isn't about RP, it's about being a strong PVP'r. It may have an effect on your character's RP, but it is about the player, not the character.

Something to keep in mind when thinking about multiclassing for skill dumps: It does not have to be a purely OOC action. Our characters can be aware of their own weaknesses, and can choose to take appropriate action to diminish those weaknesses, thus training themselves in alternative methods of combat in order to improve their combat effectiveness. Wanting to be stronger and more capable is a very valid IC motivation.

[flower]

Exactly, i still am missing point how dipping other class is not RP when it is a daily bread of Arelith.

(irony) I am pretty certain said person emotes learning every single feat he chooses on his character or it is not RP but player's choice. (/irony)


As for skill points i would like to see split up into two sets:
physical
mental-social

melee classes would get 4+ int in physical and 2+int in mental skill points.

Thus you could také skills for rp without sacrifing on combat powers (but you would get only few, and for more you need higher INT).
Same goes for wizard who would get more mental but few combat skills.

[Xuuldar]

And you continue to turn this personal. Whatever, have fun.

[Sab1]

There is enough power creep in the game already without saying you get extra for this so It won't harm your combat abilities. Sacrifices need to be made, if I horde points for tumble in the end it's going to have a negative impact somewhere as it should.

[hoshi]

There is enough power creep in the game already without saying you get extra for this so It won't harm your combat abilities. Sacrifices need to be made, if I horde points for tumble in the end it's going to have a negative impact somewhere as it should.

Well part of the issue is it doesn't. If you spent CC points on tumble as you leveled up as let's say a fighter/WM then when you gained your level of bard/rogue towards the end you would be worse off than if you dumped them. Someone that did the proper thing and saved up would have 10+ extra points to spend elsewhere.

A lot comes down to the class skill point distribution, a fighter is probably only going to get 4-5 skillpoints (2 from fighter, int 14, maybe human) a level, and those are pretty much all spoken for. A wizard or warlock is going to get something like 6-10 a level. Neither of those is really giving up combat power to gain those skillpoints. Rogues are, but several have said that primarily rogue builds could use some love anyway.