Rogue / Assassin megatopic

[Tyrantos]

Hello! I seem to recall that these sort of megatopics are all the rage these days. Anyhow, im gonna put it simple. I belive that both these classes need a buff. Perhaps not damage wise, but something that makes them more unique. As an example, as a level 5 assassin you gain access to the assassins guild. Which is sadly not as useful as it could be. (Not much to gain from joining it, speaking from my own experience.)

And as a rogue.. Well. There's really no need to play a rogue charather with alots of level in rogue, as you don't really gain that much from it which can't be earned from taking Shadowdancer instead. (Which currently is also alot more useful in a party than a rogue, due to the shadow.)

Both as an assassin and a rogue your useage to a party is removed as soon as a wizard joins it, that have a pixie. Since thats essentially a pocket rogue.(I mean that in the sense of opening chests and disabling traps.) And don't get me started on breaking into quarters, with a DC of 127. Something only attainable if you take either cleric or bard levels, and then just dump alittle into Rogue.

And then there is also the fact that everyone whom takes those three levels of rogue gain access to theives cant. Something that really should be put at like 6 levels of rogue, to stop people from just taking those three levels to be able to listen in to every shady charather's conversation.
(Also assassins's don't even get it. Which is lame.)

So to summerise, I belive we need to do something to make these classes alot more appealing. To make them more fun and viable to play in a party settning.
Any suggestions or ideas?

[CoastalSurf]

Some very quick thoughts, at least in regards to assassin:

Yes they should have thieves cant. They have access to certain npc shops where its implied in the conversation you have it, but you just....don't.

change their skill points per level so its at least on par with SD and Ranger at 6+ Int mod instead of the 4+int that it is now.

access to evasion and improved evasion with x level investment.

Those are really two of my biggest issues with the class esp compared to monk/rogue/sd/ranger, and the thieves cant thing I imagine is just an oversight

[Cerk Evermoore]

Suggestion Threads.


Open lock / disable trap familiar's
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14459
Assassin's Guild Overhaul
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14454
Poisons
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14453


This post has a lot of really good suggestions to help make the guild useful. I have known many an assassin who hit level 5 assassin levels, see the inside of the guild and just quit their characters because of how lackluster it is.

In terms of opening doors, I made a rogue to open as many locks as I could. Little did I find out later that actually rogues suck at picking locks. What I should have picked was a bard or a trickery cleric. Which I find extremely disappointing as a dedicated thief character.

[FoxyPigeon]

Just giving my feedback:

Rogue, while pretty 'meh' in general if you bother to invest, is still much more useful than Assassin. You get more skill points, can START as rogue for even more skill points and have zero requirements to take the class. 10+ Rogue gives you access to some useful feats, and is the only class that can disarm 35+ DC traps and free evasion @ level 2, which is quite useful. Also free thieves can't of course, even if it's not that useful. (Even though, I still think they need a little something).

Assassin on the other hand really needs a lot more, because it actively makes your character worse (Even with just 3-5 levels). You get less skill points, even if you have high int. No access to the rogue bonus feats, limited/worse epic bonus feats vs a rogue. Doesn't even get evasion or thieves can't. Access to an abandoned guild house, it has a portal, but it's not even 2-way (It really should be, and only usable by assassins w/ certain level req.) and getting there, especially if you have a quarter, is tedious. A contract board which is 70% epic, inactive/deleted characters. And don't forget you have to meet all the requirements for the class, which is a real pain if you don't have a class with the skills necessary. Rogue is just better and safer to take on all ends, and access to an empty guild house is not really worth it.

[SilverCrow]

Having played a character with rogue dip, and now a rogue main I can say the thing that makes me wish I wasnt playing a rogue is the fact most of the good dungeons are sneak immune or have sneak immune mobs in it. Making them hard to shine in PvE, whereas PvP they can shine nicely.

Rogues feel less like your typical thief or spy and more like your go to burst damage when you need someone to die in a timestop. Simple buffs to their skills (bluff/open lock/disable trap/etc) so they can be an actual thief would be nice. Also allowing them to use thieves tools on quarters perhaps?

Also, thieves cant feels like it was rushed and then forgotten about. Simply changing the emotes from *nods* to *Nods.* or even w/o the period would improve it drastically. But maybe its just me who thinks it looks sloppy.

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14462

Link to suggestions.

[Durvayas]

Easy Assassin Fixes.

• Pray no longer removes paralysis. The only special thing assassins can do that rogues can't do better is their death attack, which is very easily nixed.
• Change the guild imp merchant to sell traps and poisons, and more than a single sample of each of his potions. Its retarded that he only every has one clarity potion per reset, or one haste. He's currently a joke.
• Add a banker to the guild near the shopkeeper. It ostensibly handles hundreds of thousands of gold in contracts, it should be able to attend the monetary needs of those who live there. This will save people the trip of portal->hub->shadow cordor->assassin's guild antechamber->assassin's guild portal room, just to buy some supplies.
• Make the few assassin feat spells scale with their total character level(not assassin levels) and make them unlimited/day on a cooldown.
• Thieves cant, please. Gate it behind four assassin levels.
• Higher skill points for assassin levels than now. Bring them up to rogue levels to help narrow the glaring gap between the classes.
• FIX THE BOUNTY SYSTEM SO BOUNTIES STACK. I can't stress this enough. Half the reason the guild is completely abandoned is because this system is utterly broken. Just look at the list. The average bounty for a lvl 30 powerbuild is 25000 gold, and in the current system, those bounties will never get any higher, and they'll never be worth attempting. You'll blow more in UMD scrolls, potions, and wand charges than you'll get on a success. Bringing friends along means splitting the money, which makes it more of a nonstarter.
• Better feats for assassin, or access to some of the basic rogue feats.

[RealZeratul]

I might be biased because I would love to play an assassin with 19+ class levels, but what do you think about giving them HiPS at a high class level?

The recent ranger changes seemed to be heavily inspired by D&D 3.5, and in 3.5 assassins gain HiPS at level 8, as in NwN2. In my opinion, something like level 11 might be better, because otherwise it becomes too accessible compared to Shadowdancers with their two feature requirements.

[High Primate]

One suggestion I have for rogues is to make it so that the sneak attack improves with the number of rogue levels, doing even more damage, getting more AB while attacking a flatfooted target, and eventually being able to affect creatures that are ordinarily sneak immune, like undead, dragons, and Palemasters.

Like, share, and sub if you agree.

[hoshi]

Maybe something like:

A. Having the Improved Sneak Attack feat* grant you minimum sneak attack damage if the mob is sneak immune and you'd normally have a sneak attack.

B. Or it grants extra damage regardless that is always on instead of extra sneak attack dice, maybe equal to half the total sneak attack dice. Gaining more Improved Sneak Attack feats would scale this somehow.

So base rogue with +8d6 and improved sneak attack would deal +9d6.

With A. They'd deal +9d6 to a humanoid in a sneak attack situation, +9 to a vampire, and +0 if they don't have a sneak attack situation setup.

With B. They'd deal +8d6+4 to a humanoid in a sneak attack situation, +4 to anything in a non-sneak attack situation.

*I honestly don't remember how the feat requirements play with MC rogue/assassins/blackguards/whatever but if they play poorly fiddle with it so if the total sneak/death attack adds to +8d6 you can take it if possible.

[Lorkas]

For rogue, I like Kuma's idea of buffing some of the the rogue-specific feats. You could stack some pretty great buffs onto the feats that are not taken as often, since it wouldn't affect the rogue dip meta at all, but would offer some incentive for taking more rogue levels.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Since we are compiling a list of Assassin/Rogue suggestions, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14235

[Jack Oat]

A small change to a suggestion I made a while back.

[Wytchee]

Do somethin with improved/superior initiative maybe

[RealZeratul]

Since we are compiling a list of Assassin/Rogue suggestions, here is another one: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14235

It's a good suggestion, this bugs me as well. What'd be even more important though is the ability to detect traps of DC 36+, which is also limited to Rogues so far (unless it was changed here and I didn't find it).

[liver and bones]

What is the point of the assassins guild bounties, aside from the roleplay involved? It costs money to use, so I feel like it has a greater purpose than killing a person once. Seems lackluster with how people treat death.

[Lorkas]

It's mainly useful for people who are settlement leaders. If you're assassinated while you're a settlement leader, you lose the position and elections are triggered automatically.

[liver and bones]

It's mainly useful for people who are settlement leaders. If you're assassinated while you're a settlement leader, you lose the position and elections are triggered automatically.

That is huge and very insightful. Appreciate it!

[Commie]

It's mainly useful for people who are settlement leaders. If you're assassinated while you're a settlement leader, you lose the position and elections are triggered automatically.

Woah! Didn't know this!

[Sfoxwood]

A small buff to rogues isnt a bad idea, but it would be prudent to limit the pixie familiars more, and actually just a stat/ability revamp for familiars anyway. Its important to remember the dragon ball z problem (power grows and grows until things are just silly). As well as thinking of ways to boost the rogues, it would be good to think about what kind of small nerfs can be put in place to create a gap the rogue can fill.

Things that come to mind to help/nerf
-Lower the max DC of locks pixies can pick.
-(agreed with) raise the level for thieve's cant and rogue powers, maybe make them progress a little more like fighters.
-raise the UMD DC on items on the server so people have to take more than three rogue levels to use borderline every item in the game. Thus increasing the value of rogues and UMD as a skill.
-create a rogues guild static location that is only accessible with 5 or 6 rog lvls.
-A stolen goods and fencing system simliar to oblivion, where players would loot or pickpocket "hot" quest items or trade items and bring them back to a headsman like npc for xp/gold.

just spitballing

[Griefmaker]

UMD is based on the number of skill ranks and levels. So to use an item that requires UMD 10, a rogue needs 10 UMD as well as 10 levels of rogue/assassin/bard. UMD 15 requires 15 points in UMD as well as 15 levels of rogue/assassin/bard. That will make taking a large number of rogue levels very, very useful.

There are many cons to doing this, admittedly, but it would give those classes a very unique skill few would have.

[hoshi]

Instead of nerfing others down to make rogues look better, here is a possible buff.

There is a neat little "feature" if you cast an extended spell, using items like scrolls/potion/etc are also extended. Set it so that it is true for rogues with a majority of their level in rogue.

So they get twice the duration out of an item than someone with a dip. Perhaps have a special ability list with extend, empower, and maximize that they can switch between. That would represent that rogues are really good at UMD without destroying a lot of pre-existing builds.

If you really wanted to make it powerful, add in so that any item they used also acted like they had all the ESF feats. So they could boost of physical stats very well with "ESF: Transmutation" faking and Aura of Vitality etc.

[Hunter548]

UMD is based on the number of skill ranks and levels. So to use an item that requires UMD 10, a rogue needs 10 UMD as well as 10 levels of rogue/assassin/bard. UMD 15 requires 15 points in UMD as well as 15 levels of rogue/assassin/bard. That will make taking a large number of rogue levels very, very useful.

There are many cons to doing this, admittedly, but it would give those classes a very unique skill few would have.

Contrary to popular belief, the answer to the problem "X is bad" is not "nerf everything down to X's level".

Plus, all this really does is still leave rogue and assassins as trash, but suddenly bards and warlocks are kings of the server.

[Baron Saturday]

Instead of nerfing others down to make rogues look better, here is a possible buff.

There is a neat little "feature" if you cast an extended spell, using items like scrolls/potion/etc are also extended. Set it so that it is true for rogues with a majority of their level in rogue.

So they get twice the duration out of an item than someone with a dip. Perhaps have a special ability list with extend, empower, and maximize that they can switch between. That would represent that rogues are really good at UMD without destroying a lot of pre-existing builds.

If you really wanted to make it powerful, add in so that any item they used also acted like they had all the ESF feats. So they could boost of physical stats very well with "ESF: Transmutation" faking and Aura of Vitality etc.

I love the idea of faked metamagic.

[TimeAdept]

Fake metamagic and spell-thief stuff sounds very cool. I want to sneak attack someone and steal their buffs.