Reworking the RPR system

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Liareth
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Liareth » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:41 am

The criteria ('agenda') is far from hidden - it's outlined clearly here and elsewhere. Working hard doesn't entitle you to a higher RPR, just like working hard doesn't entitle you to a promotion in a company hierarchy that is based entirely on merit. Results do, not effort. (This is, of course, hypothetical; many company structures are based on seniority. Not so with RPR.)

I understand you feel that you deserve a higher RPR but statistically, you probably don't. And that's -fine-. 20 RPR is the -norm-. RPR is not something that advances with time. It's not a MMO level that you grind up. Time invested does not equal RPR increase. Consistently meeting the criteria outlined in this thread and selling yourself does. Not everybody will manage, and that's fine. There's no shame in being RPR 20. You don't lose anything from it - you just don't gain any extras. The distinction is important.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Giftstoff » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 am

DarkDreamer wrote:Oh, I know I will never have more then 20, especially as I am one of the people that speak against this sort of system.

There is no way to get real feedback on how your doing as a character, trust me I have asked DMs who literally have little to no clue, there is no way to gauge weather what you are doing is good enough or not, if you were in a job, and told that 1 in 8 people would get promotions based on hidden agenda's from the overhead corporate offices, and you watched for years, pushing, grinding and working your tail off to be the best employee the company had, but were constantly passed over. Yeah, you would begin to have issues with it. So are the players.
Dude. You need to chill out. This isnt a job, its a game. Your rpr rating isnt your pay, your livelihood, or your worth as a human being. Its just how engaging you are to other players, and your willingness to advance their stories over your own.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:52 am

One thing I observe is that those with higher RPR are often rather quiet about it - And there are several rather good reasons they might be... First among these would be not wanting to be subject to external pressure from other players making demands of their behaviour, and complaining if the 30 or 40 rpr player does not fit within the observer's definition of what 30 or 40 rpr roleplay should be.

I know I would not want to be subjected to that pressure.

However, this can lead to the impression that these RPR boosts aren't given out. In the absense of actual information as to who does and who does not have a higher rpr, it is very easy to start thinking "Oh the DM and admin team have it stitched up, they only give it to their friends"... The internet is a pit of these sorts of opinions - and they are offered freely, delivering conjecture as fact.

My advice for people wanting a higher RPR? Forget that RPR is even a thing. There is nothing less impressive than people trying to be impressive - except people claiming they are already impressive and deserve recognition for it. Just go play your characters.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:07 am

For better or for worse, Arelith is Survival of the Stubborn.

If you are stubbornly needy, self-centred, childish, arrogant, vindictive or overall just plain bad - people will eventually leave you to your business and stop complaining about you. They'll realise it's not worth the effort trying to teach you anything and just accept that you're not going to change.

However, if you are stubbornly committed to learning, setting greater standards for yourself, keeping a healthy attitude, becoming the change you wish to see or sincerely supporting something you enjoy - then you're probably going to have an effect on the server and enjoy yourself. There's also a slight and completely random chance you might get extremely lucky, and get an RPR raise. Will you get one for certain? Nobody knows. Maybe I'll never keen a masterly damask sword. Or maybe I will, if I'm stubborn about it. Giving up is 100% chance of failure. Now I don't enjoy gambling but I really don't like those odds.

I've made my choice on what kind of player I want to be. This isn't some Tony Robbins pep talk, this is the reality of the server. Even if your behaviour is persistently bad, you will still get somewhere if you're persistent. But who wants to be known as THAT guy?

RPR isn't that important anyway. It's supposed to be a bonus for consistent behaviour, whether it's towards RP or the server. So form some good habits, and stop putting pressure on yourself for the sake of some minor bonus. Do it for your own sake.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by BrilliantInsanity » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:06 pm

The only change I would like to see would be RPR 20 being the default (good faith assumption people who come to RP servers will stay in character and make decent enough playmates, aka, what RPR 20 claims it is on the wiki). RPR 10 being a "first warning" for breaking character constantly, or otherwise being a un-fun player, and then MoD being the "we warned you and you didn't listen now you're being punished for realsies" settings.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Kirito » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:41 pm

Durvayas wrote:
To an adult with a actual job or two, time is incredibly valuable.
Having a full on 9-5+ overtime job, wife and husky... plus helping develop the server, other hobbies and commitments I completely get you that time is valuable. It's just not a mechanical advantage.
The less time spent meaninglessly grinding the same dungeon over, and over, and over, and over again to reach your next level, the better. The higher your RPR, the more benefit you get out of adventure RP, the more you can kick back and RP within settlements with others; plotting, thieving, spying, guarding, mercantile... any activity that doesn't involve going dungeoneering slows down your character's advancement mechanically.

Presently, RPR is too mechanically valuable, which is why those plenty who have been overlooked by the system resent it. Your RPR is tied to how much you benefit from the adventure exp pool, your exp bonus without adventure exp, having the option to play an RPR locked race, and your ECL(which in turn effects how fast you level on the whole significantly).
If meaningless grinding is your issue just to get to the next level, then that isnt solved by RPB, it's really not mitigated a huge amount by RPB either since at 40 you still need around 300 hours game time to get to 30 including getting the 300k xp into your adventure account... The obvious solution foryou is starting at a higher level?... like 30?... but since this server encourages the levelling process, that's not a realistic solution. So maybe it's your view point/expectations that needs to be altered?

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:49 pm

The difference between this system and randomly handing out 500-1000xp, DM's are more free to hand it out when they feel that the RP they see is good, they don't need a vote from a"group" of DM's who may have their own personal agendas.
Alright. How do we punish bad roleplay then?

Take xp away? How's that any punishment? Someone can just grind it back up with little to no effort. So what does that leave us? Removing gold? Removing characters? Out and out banning?

Would you like to be banned from Arelith because some Dm said 'hrn. He's not a very good roleplayer.'

If a Paladin isn't acting very Paladinish, we tend to respond with rpr changes rather than alignment changes/punishment. Would you rather we made that players character unplayable? Rather they were banned because they were grinding too much? Would you like that sort of threat against your character?

Should we stop rewarding/punishing rp all together? Just let the players do as they will? Is that a condusive tactic for an rp server?

Is it indeed better that instead of a careful discussion with another, or maybe two more DMs about the potential merits of a certain player -I can just log in when said player is on and vomit 1000 xp every five minutes on them, because they're a good friend ooc and hey, they're not likely to complain?

How does giving the power of one single dm to raise characters to ridiculous heights in any way lessen accusations of corruption?

How does it lessen the issues of play times? Some accusatrions here are correct - there are play times with little DM coverage where, alas, people get missed. This won't help that, it'll make it worse!

Whilst I am actually in semi agreement that perhaps the RPR system needs to be made more granular (perhaps make it levels 10-50? With a new level there for 'people who roleplay characters very well, but are not too 'giving' to the server in general...) At the end of the day, any system we have that rewards roleplay will be vulnerable to the same problems.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Trunx » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:00 pm

People are rarely capable of honest self-reflection of their own behavior, or their friends' behavior. Just because you think you deserve a higher RPR (...90% of drivers think they're better than average...), and the only reason you don't have one is because of bias/time zone/inactivity of DMs, doesn't make it true. The blind spots we have when it comes to our own personalities are exactly in the places that DMs judge when evaluating RPR. Few people think of themselves as selfish, or notice that they're rarely taking other people's fun into consideration. Often those people would actually claim the opposite if asked, despite contrary evidence.

And then there's ability: someone just flat out might not be capable of making storylines fun for everyone, no matter how hard they try. And that's fine. The vast majority of players aren't, and/or don't want to put in that much effort just to make strangers enjoy themselves more.

DMs aren't perfect (and no replacement system would be, either), but like Seven said, they have the best chance of accurately assessing who deserves high RPR and who doesn't.

And like others have said before, but should be stressed anyway, it doesn't mean you're a bad RPer if you have a 20. RP quality alone won't get you to 30 or 40.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:05 pm

To my understanding, there were also policy changes enacted in the past year or so that RPR drops are not to be used as a common form of player punishment anymore.

RPR has become much more of a static event. I don't really know of any major instances where peopled have been docked from a 40 to a 30, or a 30 to 20, unless they've done something really, really dumb.

Is the primary concern that people who have 20 RPRs feel like it is totally unjustified that people with 30 RPRs and 40 RPRs receive more adventureXP per tick?

The original sentiment is starting to get muddied in general angst against the system.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Ramza » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:19 pm

Remember DMs are humans as well. They can and likely will act toward their own bias more often than not.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:36 pm

Ramza wrote:Remember DMs are humans as well. They can and likely will act toward their own bias more often than not.
That is quite the point of it all, though, isn't it?

DMs are selected through interview, not random chance. Meaning the Dev team selects those folk whom they think share the same values and views, and can enforce those in game, not only by making sure no one is spoiling other people's fun, but also by giving rewards and managing rpbs.

I would argue that removing the rpr would not change much. Neither for better or worse. People will still look at the neighbour's house and wish they had what they see in the garden. And those who value fun and rp will still strive for it.

Keeping it as it is is also not the opressing, fascist/orwellian system some would have us believe. Not unless one actively choses to make it so.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:41 pm

Honestly I never had a problem my self with the rpr system we had. I have been on 20 rpr almost my entire time I played on Arelith and never once cared for it.

But with the adventure xp added I do have a problem with rpr system. Before it was just a small bonus of 10 to 40 per tick. But with the adventure rp this ain't no longer a small bonus as those with a higher rpr gain more adventure xp per tick. That just grinds my gears as now it has become a completely imbalanced system that is known to be static and hard to get above 20.

Honestly if the adventure xp for every one was the same I would not care this much for rpr as I always did. But now I want that 30 as well. I'd support the idea given here a few times already that adventure xp should be just a flat gain not tied in to rpr. And make it max 40xp per tick as the rpr 20 gives now.

My two cents

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by DSM-IV » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:48 pm

These threads pop up every 4 or 5 months it seems. It seems to be an irritant for some. I think we all go through a cycle when first joining this server. We tend to worry about it at first, then kind of process it, and just forget about it after a while.

I would be curious what players with higher RPR are actually doing while they are playing. For instance are they spending their time RP'ing instead of grinding most of the time? I would guess probably yes. Well what if we made the system a choice upon PC creation instead of placing pressure upon DM's? So it would cater to one's play style instead of perceived ability to roll play.

Now I have no idea the math or details how things work so bare with me.

And I am having a sudden case of Deja Vu. LIke I did this two years ago..anyway..

So, one would choose a higher RPR upon start up. We would receive higher xp ticks, but lower grinding xp or slower adventure fill up or whatever. Now grinding would always still gain you more xp and faster leveling, but I would bet those with higher RPR in general don't really care much about leveling. They are too busy RP'ing. Leveling is just a way to move from place to place without getting killed. So, for my play style, I would receive a higher XP tick yet little to no xp for killing things. So, instead of it taking a year to level a PC to epic, it might take 6 months.

Now how do we reward good RP? Well that is where the DM's come in. They still watch things develop, but reward good RP with either RP oriented Items, or quest lines that involve those players who normally would have a higher RPR, as well as, PC's that naturally gravitate around the former higher RPR players.

Now, some are going to scream hey that is DM favoritism! Well, that is the trade off between RP'ing all the time instead of grinding. Those with currently high RPR consistently show they aren't playing to win, instead playing for story, and don't really care much about fast leveling.

To sum up this mess of a post. A system you choose at startup that fits what your play style is, and DM's reward good RP with items or quest lines.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:52 am

My thoughts on what i'm reading

It seems like theres a few general themes popping up over and over

-Higher rpr=less grinding.
-People who are awesome roleplayers still don't get higher rprs
-Having a higher rpr is a mechanical advantage

For the first point, my personal experience? A lot of people who had higher rprs also did a healthy amount of grinding with fair-to-large sized groups. Contrary to popuar belief, lower rpr and frequent grinding frequency do NOT necessarily go hand in hand. Silent, spawn-running circle grinding with the ocassional extended invis+run to the artifact chest grinding? Yeah, that'll probably get you smacked down a bit. Grinding in an in-character manner? Probably not so much.

For the second point; yes, there are people who are good, or even great roleplayers that don't have a higher rpr. Being a good roleplayer in itself, though, typically isn't enough to get a higher rating. Why? Its not just how good of a roleplayer that person it is, from what i've seen. Its also how their roleplay effects other players, and the environment as a whole. I can be an awesome roleplayer, but if i'm not really adding anything to other players enjoyment or experience, well, i'm probably not going to get a higher rating, no matter how awesome I am.

Thats partially where some people seem to get the idea that settlement leaders/faction leaders are the ones that are most likely to get dm attention for a higher rpr. Its not necessarily true, but if your character is making an impact large enough to keep people motivated even when you're offline, you're probably taking a step in the right direction. Being a faction leader certainly puts you in a good position to do this, but its nowhere near the only way.

As for higher rpr=mechanical advantages...only a little in the fact you get a little more xp every 6 minutes. It'll take a fair amount of time for that to add up to something significant if you're relying on that alone for xp, though, as 40 xp is something you can easily make off two or three critters in a spawn in the span of 12-18 seconds while farming. I have no idea where "limited dm powers" come into play with a higher rpr, though.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by gilescorey » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:19 am

Higher RPR also gives you less ECL, something that is to my mind a little bit much. Playing with my higher-RPR friends means they constantly have to "stop" levelling for a while just so they don't outpace me. It makes a big difference, especially early.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by liver and bones » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:22 am

gilescorey wrote:Higher RPR also gives you less ECL, something that is to my mind a little bit much. Playing with my higher-RPR friends means they constantly have to "stop" levelling for a while just so they don't outpace me. It makes a big difference, especially early.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by RedGiant » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:28 am

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but, I believe there is a rather simple thing we all might do to dramatically increase our chances of getting favorable DM notice.

In short, its awfully hard to establish yourself as an excellent RPer if you quickly tire of your surly Orog true flame then switch to your crossbow specialized Hin...only to grow bored in ten minutes and continue to cycle through your 15 side projects.

This means....dun dun dun...play fewer characters and play the ones you do play well. Ideally, play just one through a good long story arc that generates inclusive RP.

*Note: I myself will probably never actually take my own advice, because the staff keeps coming up with cool stuff...and because I think I have undiagnosed adult ADD...and because I like my NWN a little actiony...and because I "enemied" Peppermint on the forums....and because...
...
..
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Wytchee » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:43 am

RedGiant wrote:I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but, I believe there is a rather simple thing we all might do to dramatically increase our chances of getting favorable DM notice.

In short, its awfully hard to establish yourself as an excellent RPer if you quickly tire of your surly Orog true flame then switch to your crossbow specialized Hin...only to grow bored in ten minutes and continue to cycle through your 15 side projects.

This means....dun dun dun...play fewer characters and play the ones you do play well. Ideally, play just one through a good long story arc that generates inclusive RP.

*Note: I myself will probably never actually take my own advice, because the staff keeps coming up with cool stuff...and because I think I have undiagnosed adult ADD...and because I like my NWN a little actiony...and because I "enemied" Peppermint on the forums....and because...
...
..
.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by gilescorey » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:13 am

liver and bones wrote: DM Spyre told me that wasn't a thing anymore.
Uh, since when? That has been in for a while, it seems weird that it's been removed with nary a word about it. Hell, I know it's true, I've tested it.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Commie » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:20 am

What if adventure XP was always at 50 a tick for everyone not being punished with 0 RPR, so your RPR is just a bonus and not a huge gigantic difference in XP/Hour?

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Astral » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:21 am

gilescorey wrote:
liver and bones wrote: DM Spyre told me that wasn't a thing anymore.
Uh, since when? That has been in for a while, it seems weird that it's been removed with nary a word about it. Hell, I know it's true, I've tested it.
Its still on the wiki.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Ozzy.nl » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:33 am

Commie wrote:What if adventure XP was always at 50 a tick for everyone not being punished with 0 RPR, so your RPR is just a bonus and not a huge gigantic difference in XP/Hour?
I'd give it a +1.

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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Cortex » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:21 pm

A lot of 30s (and even a few 40s) I know are shameless grinders. The "high RPR = little grinding" is a fallacy. It's about the content, quality and welcoming of their RP.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:38 am

perhaps something else could be that this is brought up because some people want to play the rpr restricted races.

Why dont we just have these rpr requirement races be a DM interview requirement instead. Im sure some people who have been 20 could handle being a fey or an ogre or whatever it is now.

We have PrC that need tokens to play the classes.

Just make sure its very clear that if they dont play the special race within whats expected as such, that the character can get zapped. meaning if you are given the opportunity to play one of these things, you see it as a privilege and not a right.
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Re: Reworking the RPR system

Post by Ork » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:05 am

If the hang up is RPB required races, let's just remove them. No one's going to miss fey.

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