Reworking the RPR system

[DarkDreamer]

Fey being a 30 only thing is an artifact of the past, when planetouched races were locked behind 30 RPB. All of them moved to award races, except fey, I believe it was due to the fact very few actually played fey and there was never an issue with fey numbers.

The intent of the RPB gate was to keep special races controlled.

Fairly, I would prefer it to be a Greater Reward then locked behind a barrier of "Your not good enough"

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'd actually be curious how many people actually commend other people's roleplay in a private manner rather than publically - whether in tells, or forum PMs, or otherwise. (I do, for one, and abstain entirely from the kudos subforum)

It really has been the most positive reinforcement for me - or sometimes I get constructive feedback after a scene or encounter.

Also, I also wonder how many people send tells to the DM channel when they witness good roleplay. I have done this on several occasions and sometimes DMs respond with appreciation and "I'll take a look."

All of this is much more meaningful than kudos threads, and I'd encourage this positive behaviour, because karma is a thing.

[DarkDreamer]

I have repeatedly messaged players after RP and privately thanked them for awesome RP.

[Irongron]

There's some great posts on this thread, it really is an excellent primer on how to climb to a higher rating.

Also with posts from myself, Scholar and Cortex (all staff members) revealing that none of us has a 40 I think it helps show that they're really isn't favoritism at play. I was a 40 myself for a while, but that was gained before I had a role on the team, and I got dropped for my actions AFTERWARDS (From 40 to 0, for a time...)

Given how little I play, and how little impact I have now as a player I really wouldn't deserve it again.

[Durvayas]

I feel it bears noting. You can be the best roleplayer in the world, but if you are located in a timezone that sees very little DM coverage, your RPR will remain forever static, so ggwp in that regard.

The main issue with it, is that there is very little feedback, and RPRs very rarely seem to ever move. I can list several people who should have a 30 or even a 40 who have been at 20 for years. Some can blame DM favoritism in the form of antipathy, some can blame timezones.

Me? I've been a 20 for so long, I'm tired of wondering why, and frankly, I view the system as broken, because I've seen so many players with high ratings they definitely don't deserve, and players with ratings far below what they should have. I've asked for feedback more than once over the years, and the majority of the time gotten crickets("Don't worry about it, we'll watch you") or advice to do things I already do. Neither of which are constructive feedback.

Playing the UD definitely doesn't help. If you want to see DMs regulalry, you still need to play in the surface settlements, because we definitely don't see a lot of DM activity in the underdark, and that is something that remains sadly consistent. We'll occasionally be able to draw a DM down there with a request, but by and large, we don't feel noticed down there. Its certainly not a place DMs seem to linger of their own volition. I've played the UD for over six years now, and I can count the number of DM events I've seen in the UD (that weren't involving a DM specifically requested by myself or another for a plot) on one hand.

In short, it seems to be a farce, and I thorougly support any and all measures to render it obsolete, either though moving RPR gated things to the awards system, or giving everyone a flat bonus every tick.

The intent behind the system may be good, but actual execution is terrible, and at this point I've entirely lost faith in the system, and feel it should be abolished entirely. It instills in players a feeling they aren't good enough, and is too static to be an effective reward or punishment system. Scrap it.

[Marsi]

If you are playing at a 30 or 40 RPR level, the DMs will eventually find out. By acting the way a 30 or 40 RPR should, your character should be sufficiently self-advertised. This does not require DM omniscience because a 30 or 40 RPR consistently impacts the server at large. They don't need to be "watched", because they should have a reputation and be influential. Yes time-zones may impact this, but if you have enough time to invest in the game, your character's actions should ring throughout the server whether you are logged in or not. If this doesn't describe you, then why the angst?

Rather than take it as an attack on one's character writing, understand that it is not a simple hierarchy, rather, that 30 and 40's are a particular type of player. I've seen 30 and even 40's with pretty poor writing and dull characterization. They get better mechanical rewards because frankly, they put in more effort. If everyone played at a 10 or 20 RPR level, I'd wager the server would not be as fun as it is.

Rather than rage against the machine, I suggest finding someone who makes big plays on the server and observing them. See what they do that you don't. You might even come to find the level of work involved is way too much for you. Embrace a spirit of self-improvement and don't be bitter about it.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Good ol dragoneye once said that even people with 30s and 40s are allowed to make mistakes every now and again. Don't expect people with those ratings to be impervious to screw ups - so it's totally fair you may have observed them at a time when they are not "deserving." That could be one moment out of 20.

But I think Scholar made the apt observation that the rating takes two elements into account
1) how well you roleplay your character
2) how your roleplay impacts the server positively

RPR is heavily weighted to the former.

Also, I resent the argument about players thinking their subjective opinion on who is deserving of what RPR, because I bet you my opinions are going to be completely different from the next. At least DMs are semi omnipotent, generally competent, have to form some degree of consensus, and have access to logs. Players don't have any of that, and I can hardly think they ever have the capacity to judge another person's roleplay with finality.

[hoshi]

Wow wasn't expecting a post I made to lead to all of this.

I think one of the biggest issues is that there are varying definitions of what is "good, inclusive, RP", especially when it comes to more villainous types.

One person that sees a drow matron writing paragraph long descriptions* and imperiously ordering people about is going to see that as true to type and inclusive, another is going to view it as being wordy and stifling.

There isn't a right answer to what it is, but it is more difficult to judge than let's say a more good/neutral performing troupe. Generally any conflict based RP (whether initiative is rolled or not) is going to vary based on the audience compared to RP with little to no conflict.**

Also "Bringing a character to life" isn't part of the high RPR bonus criteria (nor am I saying it should be), but for myself at least I see it as top-notch RPing.

*Not really related to conflict RP, but it is something I've heard both sides of an argument on whether they like it or not.
**You can certainly have conflict based RP in a performing troupe made up of all Good characters.

[Mr_Rieper]

A lot of people think that 30 or 40 has to do with how well they portray their character. Or how interesting their character is.

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't. That side of RP maxes out at 20. You can roleplay the most interesting character on the server and still be a 20.

30 and 40 comes down to technique. This is improv that we are doing, and Arelith is our stage. And improv, like many other things, has many techniques that people can use. It's not about raw creativity, it's also about finesse. Make the other actors on stage look good, throw down some "offers" they can pick up. Know how to "Yes, and-" properly and effectively. A lot of people have some degree of instinct when it comes to this, but it never hurts to learn more.

The other side of this is about sacrifice, but again, still involves technique. If you pour so much time and energy into running a faction that your character becomes a bland stereotype, but the rest of your members are having a blast? You're probably deserving of a 30.

Again, it's not about being the most interesting. It's about making the server interesting. They are not necessarily the same thing in the end.

[This is not for you.]

Hello

The buzzword you need to think of when going for 30-40 rpr isn't about 'quality', it's about being Engaging.

Does your role play provide avenues of RP (as in interesting questing, plot devices, meaningful back and forth conversation) for others? Is what you're writing focused on uplifting and doing things that can effect lots of people more than just yourself and the people you tend to play with? Or would you say your writing is more focused on your own character's plots, where you tend to take center stage in events or plots? Do you find yourself dominating the majority of the conversation/rp with your own emotes/dialoge, or are you having equal measure of back and forth that is more than fun banter?

Does your narrative provide meaningful, insightful questions to the audience that inspires them to have to stop and think about their responses? And while some 30-40s are more inclined to be people who shake up factions and settlements, I know several 30s-40s that earned their title by being engaging to lots of people as a free agent, and being a fun and positive member of the community.

When you're writing you need to ask yourself if what you're doing is going to be interesting for other people involved. You need to be critical of yourself and think "maybe this person isn't going to have a good time watching me hold a big giant crazy magical ritual invoking Mystra to save my dead baby momma". Then you need to take the next step and ask yourself how you can get other people involved with what you're doing. There's a certain degree of social empathy required to try and understand when the other parties involved are having fun or not.

30-40rpr is not a 'quality' of RP but a play-style, as Marsi and Mr Repier both pointed out. Not everyone is going to be a 30-40, and I'll readily admit some people don't have the RPR they should. DMs are not there constantly and sometimes just need a little poke to say 'hey, take a look at what I'm doing sometime ' But it's not something you should beat yourself up over if you don't have it. As someone with a higher RPR I am constantly, consciously working toward improving my narrative, trying to be fun and inclusive and interesting to play with. It's very tiring and I lowkey live in constant fear one day it won't be good enough and the DMs will have had enough of my self-aware depreciating emotes and dock me.

I hope this is enlightening and reaches those of you who are wondering!

[Baron Saturday]

Ai yi.

I really wasn't trying to create another thread on the topic of "How to Improve RPR," though I do appreciate the number of fantastic roleplayers who have stopped by to offer advice and perspective.

The purpose of this thread was to examine the mechanics of how RPR changes are handled to see if there was a way of doing them that might be less opaque to players who don't know how their RP is regarded by the DM team. In other words...

I am constantly, consciously working toward improving my narrative, trying to be fun and inclusive and interesting to play with. It's very tiring and I lowkey live in constant fear one day it won't be good enough and the DMs will have had enough of my self-aware depreciating emotes and dock me.

That is EXACTLY the sort of uncertainty and anxiety I'd like to reduce.

[Seekeepeek]

okay, going to take a set back from Arelith and take on the sceptical glasses.

Roleplay
"To take a false identity through a blogging communtiy, and using aquired pictures and a fabricated bio. you talk to other roleplayers, remaining in character. May be an entirely original bio, or roleplay a character from a book or movie."

None of the descriptions have anything to do with roleplay to be honest:

0 Bonus: Loner or punished player.
10 Bonus: New kid on the block.
20 Bonus: Established player.
30 Bonus: Cool kid you wanna hang with.
40 Bonus : Flexible cool kid you wanna hang with.

Calling it a roleplay rating is seriously a misleading label as it don't measure roleplay at all. i think there is two groups here that want roleplay rating to actually measure Roleplay abilities (cause the name implies so) and a group that look at the description of each stage and aim for for-filling the requirements.

RPR should be renamed to something else.. like ATO meaning "attitude toward others" if you ask me

[Baron Saturday]

So, to sum up, on the subject of reducing player frustration/uncertainty/angst with the RPR system, I've seen three general ideas.

1) Alter how RPR changes work. This was what the OP suggested, and while there were some very valid objections to the specific solution I proposed, I'd still like to discuss alternate ways to accomplish this.
2) Reduce the mechanical benefits of RPR so that having less than 30 RPR doesn't feel like a punishment. I personally quite like the idea of having AXP doled out at a flat rate. Removing RPR barriers to certain races and classes was also suggested.
3) Change the community's perception of RPR. Which I think would be very difficult without doing either #1 or #2.

[Xerah]

Some thoughts...

Another suggestion that can work to maybe help frustration of some is to explicitly split it into the total of two ratings:

0-20 = how well you role play your characters
0-20 = how well your characters help improve the server environment

A common point I’ve heard raised here is that people feel that their RP isn’t good enough where that’s not necessarily the case. If they could see that their personal RP is “maxed out” then maybe that would allow a better understanding of what to do improve.

A counter point to this is that people are going to think similar things when their second number sits at zero but at least the system will be more transparent. The current system does allow some grey areas with this which is necessary in any subjective system.

All that said, any system that has hidden rankings (or even public ones) is always going to have people judging the person next door and thinking that they are better.

[Ridiculously Circuitous Plans]

I would personally simply advocate for the idea to separate AXP from RPR. I've been a 20 for a number of years, and I've seen a number of these threads pop up, and a lot of the same frustrations being spoken of. I've also felt some of the same feelings over the years, though I've made my peace with my 20 long ago. I will say, however, that part of me finding that peace was my resolution to never run a faction again.

I've run several factions over the years, some of the early ventures being less successful as I learned, but the more recent ones (years past though they may now be) were quite successful by most standards, having a rather large pool of engaged and engaging active characters. Its hard not to feel passed over when you spend 80-90 percent of your online time in recruitment, or delegating tasks, or listening to reports, or fielding complaints and problems, or organizing events for your members and others, or any of the other myriad tasks faction leaders do on a daily basis, but can't seem to crack that 20 mark.

One sees a lot of well thought out and well meaning advice on how to do it in threads like this one, but very little is more frustrating than to see exactly what you are trying to do with your game experience laid out in a guide by someone who's achieved the goal already. It leaves little else to be thought but 'Well... I feel like I'm doing my very best to do exactly that already... I guess I'm not good enough.'

For me, the answer was simple. Leave the hard work to others who apparently are more skilled at that sort of thing. I join factions and support them, try to help them thrive and build fun stories, and now I even have time to advance my own plotlines every now and again So 10s and 20s out there, I definitely have felt your pain, but I guess just try not to let it ruin your fun.

I do think that having AXP normalized would take some of the sting out, however.

[DM Always This Late]

I would not put a huge amount of attention on ones RPR. In my mind it's just meant to be a bonus. Maybe we could change the name to reflect that.

As I mentioned in my first post on this thread,

RP in a way that is impactful and Meaningful for you. Share that with other players. If you are having fun the RPR is irrelevant and is nothing more then a light bonus.

Also, in regards to RPR specific classes or races if you do not have the RPR to play one, but you got the reward after a roll, reach out to us as DMs. We can probably help you out while also making sure server standards are upheld.

[Seekeepeek]

RPR= Role per rating!
iam going to start calling it that in game.

[Baron Saturday]

I would not put a huge amount of attention on ones RPR. In my mind it's just meant to be a bonus. Maybe we could change the name to reflect that.

With higher RPR giving much greater benefits than it used to, it's difficult to just not worry about it. While the difference between an RPR of 10 and an RPR of 40 used to be 300 xp/hour, now with AXP and Adventure mode, that difference has grown to potentially 900 xp/hour. That's pretty significant!

If the team's desire is for people not to worry about their RPR, then perhaps RPR should not be so mechanically valuable.

I'll also point out that RPR is also called RPB (Role Play Bonus), so I'm sort of dubious that a simple rebranding is gonna get people to chill!

[Kirito]

With higher RPR giving much greater benefits than it used to, it's difficult to just not worry about it. While the difference between an RPR of 10 and an RPR of 40 used to be 300 xp/hour, now with AXP and Adventure mode, that difference has grown to potentially 900 xp/hour. That's pretty significant!

If the team's desire is for people not to worry about their RPR, then perhaps RPR should not be so mechanically valuable.

I'll also point out that RPR is also called RPB (Role Play Bonus), so I'm sort of dubious that a simple rebranding is gonna get people to chill!

It isn't mechanically valuable. It doesn't give you special abilities. It doesn't improve your characters stats. It gives you nothing unique**

The only thing it does do is that it saves you time.



**Yes, you can get fey from being RPB 30... but you can get fey from a major reward. The race is not gated solely by RPB

[Liareth]

I think it might help if players look at the adventure exp income of RPR 20 as a -baseline-. That's what most players should have. It's not a punishment to have it - it's a reward to have more. Remember, before adventure exp was implemented, nobody had any of it. You have now more than you used to have, regardless of your RPR.

Of course there will be some who cry foul when the system places them lower than they believe they ought to be, and of course some who deserve a better rating will be overlooked. Any merit-based system suffers from these flaws. We want to reward players who go above and beyond to make the server a better place, and tying some bonuses to RPR is our way to do that. I agree that fey is out of place, though. They should be tied to a greater award.

[Durvayas]

With higher RPR giving much greater benefits than it used to, it's difficult to just not worry about it. While the difference between an RPR of 10 and an RPR of 40 used to be 300 xp/hour, now with AXP and Adventure mode, that difference has grown to potentially 900 xp/hour. That's pretty significant!

If the team's desire is for people not to worry about their RPR, then perhaps RPR should not be so mechanically valuable.

I'll also point out that RPR is also called RPB (Role Play Bonus), so I'm sort of dubious that a simple rebranding is gonna get people to chill!

It isn't mechanically valuable. It doesn't give you special abilities. It doesn't improve your characters stats. It gives you nothing unique**

The only thing it does do is that it saves you time.

To an adult with a actual job or two, time is incredibly valuable.

The less time spent meaninglessly grinding the same dungeon over, and over, and over, and over again to reach your next level, the better. The higher your RPR, the more benefit you get out of adventure RP, the more you can kick back and RP within settlements with others; plotting, thieving, spying, guarding, mercantile... any activity that doesn't involve going dungeoneering slows down your character's advancement mechanically.

Presently, RPR is too mechanically valuable, which is why those plenty who have been overlooked by the system resent it. Your RPR is tied to how much you benefit from the adventure exp pool, your exp bonus without adventure exp, having the option to play an RPR locked race, and your ECL(which in turn effects how fast you level on the whole significantly).

[I hope you got money]

As a "new guy" I found the explanations from those on the team in this thread of what the expectations of the rpr system is to be well thought out. Involving others as a player with this large of a player base and no ic forum requires a lot of time and effort, and there is no guarantee that your time and effort will amount to any kind of success. Those are the types of players that should be rewarded with ways to advance in levels faster without having to go kill stuff, since they likely don't have the time.

[Liareth]

It's almost important to note that there's a difference between being overlooked (which happens, but not as often as many think) and simply not possessing the characteristics that the DM team looks for in an RPR 30 or RPR 40 player. Just because a person believes they deserve it doesn't mean they actually do - and in fact, based on the statistics I posted yesterday, only 1 in 8 people over at RPR 20 will have it.

[Baron Saturday]

It isn't mechanically valuable. It doesn't give you special abilities. It doesn't improve your characters stats. It gives you nothing unique**

The only thing it does do is that it saves you time.



**Yes, you can get fey from being RPB 30... but you can get fey from a major reward. The race is not gated solely by RPB

"Mechanically valuable" may have been the wrong wording. I meant to say that it provides a bonus that is of distinct value, because time is valuable. (As Durvayas sniped this posting to note!)

That said, thanks to all for your responses. I'm going to step back from this thread long enough to refocus my thoughts, make sure I'm not arguing for a position I don't actually believe in, and maybe also sleep, but by all means don't stop the discussion on my account!

[DarkDreamer]

Oh, I know I will never have more then 20, especially as I am one of the people that speak against this sort of system. Wanna reward players for being outgoing, unique, offering great RP, give them 500-1000xp, seriously, all this system does is create the pressure that you will never be good enough, hidden behind a group of DM's personal agenda's that you may never live up to, and fairly, it is human nature to be biased to certain things even when your supposed to be unbiased.

There is no way to get real feedback on how your doing as a character, trust me I have asked DMs who literally have little to no clue, there is no way to gauge weather what you are doing is good enough or not, if you were in a job, and told that 1 in 8 people would get promotions based on hidden agenda's from the overhead corporate offices, and you watched for years, pushing, grinding and working your tail off to be the best employee the company had, but were constantly passed over. Yeah, you would begin to have issues with it. So are the players.

The difference between this system and randomly handing out 500-1000xp, DM's are more free to hand it out when they feel that the RP they see is good, they don't need a vote from a"group" of DM's who may have their own personal agendas. Its far less dated and doesn't require a lot of thought process. Also...its more fair.