Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

[Peppermint]

Most old servers weren't capped at level 20 because it was "better balanced". Most old servers were capped at level 20 because that was the level cap. Epic levels weren't added until HotU, and by then, it was difficult for many servers to simply raise the cap; they just didn't have the high level content to support it.

Multiclassing is frequent in 3.X D&D. It's an absolute necessity if you want to be optimal. Frequent any boards devoted to mechanics from around that period, and I can guarantee you that you'll find few, if any pure builds. This isn't a quirk native to NwN. This is a quirk native to the system, period.

As for the barbarian AC bonus, it's granted only in light/medium armor. You'll need 18 dexterity and a chain shirt just to break even with a standard 20/7/3 WM (which gets +3 in full plate).

[Cortex]

With today's changes, giving a barb 4 always-on dodge ac at 20 barbarian, does that just make them outright better then fighters?

At this point, what does a fighter/wm have over all those rage/passive perks?

Fighters also get +3 from fighter bonuses, not to mention many more feats.

[jinroh]

My thought process isn't whether if it "destroyed" a build or not, but I suspect many pre-existing characters would have picked different ability points, feats, skills, and/or multiclass options with the change. I can understand not offering a relevel when you don't want the feel of a character to have an abrupt shift, but when that shift is already present I don't understand the harm in offering it.

Even a relevel at a penalty would be something, so if you lose 100K xp you only gain 50K back to represent retraining or something (this is how it worked on an old server I played on).

I personally think people should be excited to see when a dev is working on a class, and not dread if it is going to be a death knell for their character. Lacking the ability to redo some things with retroactive changes can cause some to fear as opposed to embrace the changes though.

[hmm2]

...I suspect many pre-existing characters
would have picked different ability points, feats, skills, and/or multiclass...

+1

[Commie]

With today's changes, giving a barb 4 always-on dodge ac at 20 barbarian, does that just make them outright better then fighters?

At this point, what does a fighter/wm have over all those rage/passive perks?

Fighters also get +3 from fighter bonuses, not to mention many more feats.

I think plate-fighter/wm ends up at +1 ac over barb, but, no free DR, no fast move, no crazy rage damage, no fear AOE's, no debuff purge. In exchange you get an easier avenue for 7 WM levels, which is (I believe) not worth the investment.

At this point I believe if you want a 'strength' build I don't see a reason reason to not go heavy barb, unless you demand multiple combat maneuver feats (disarm and knockdown instead of just one). Barb is also favored fort which WM isn't.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see what advantage WM has. Unless you go to x4 crit even the extra crit damage from WM can be outdone by a bog-standard hammer barbarian.

[Sockss]

WM = Weedy Man

Not worth.

[Cortex]

A pure 20 barbarian pre epic gets: 7 feats.
A 13 ftr/7 WM pre-epic gets: 14.

Essential feats the barbarian needs: 3. This leaves them 3 spare feats.
(Weapon Focus, Blind Fight, Improved Critical)

Essential feats the WM needs: 9, this leaves them 5 spare feats.
(Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Blind Fight, Improved Critical).

*By essential, I mean they CANNOT skip under any circumstance.

Furthermore, the WM gets: +2 to threat, +1 to multiplier, and +1 permanent AB. A 18-20 weapon can get you up to 55% critical rate dependant on enemy AC. (3x weapons are significantly weaker than a scimitar, rapier or kukri on a WM).

Bonus perks the WM has over barbarian: Whirlwind Attack. Smart use means you can't land hits on stealthed/GSanced enemies, and even get an extra attack on your first flurry.

tldr: The WM has enormous damage potential that the barbarian rivals, but much greater versatility. Both in how they do damage and how they can be built/played.

[Commie]

A pure 20 barbarian pre epic gets: 7 feats.
A 13 ftr/7 WM pre-epic gets: 14.

Essential feats the barbarian needs: 3. This leaves them 3 spare feats.
(Weapon Focus, Blind Fight, Improved Critical)

Essential feats the WM needs: 9, this leaves them 5 spare feats.
(Weapon Focus, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Blind Fight, Improved Critical).

*By essential, I mean they CANNOT skip under any circumstance.

Furthermore, the WM gets: +2 to threat, +1 to multiplier, and +1 permanent AB. A 18-20 weapon can get you up to 55% critical rate dependant on enemy AC. (3x weapons are significantly weaker than a scimitar, rapier or kukri on a WM).

Bonus perks the WM has over barbarian: Whirlwind Attack. Smart use means you can't land hits on stealthed/GSanced enemies, and even get an extra attack on your first flurry.

tldr: The WM has enormous damage potential that the barbarian rivals, but much greater versatility. Both in how they do damage and how they can be built/played.

Barbarians can get WWA, and it's only a few feats. You can easily make a baller barb build with WWA and just rock what you say is the "bonus perk" for WM's.

It's even less investment if you plan on going for weapon spec/imp weapon spec, you have the feats.

[Nitro]

Going for WWA on a barb is going to make you seriously feat starved though.

[Commie]

Going for WWA on a barb is going to make you seriously feat starved though.

But it can be done, if you want that extra bonus attack.

My point was that WWA is not a WM/Fighter exclusive. That extra attack is something almost anyone can get.

[Tetra]

My thought process isn't whether if it "destroyed" a build or not...

+2

To me this is the biggest problem with Arelith today. "Don't play a PDK because changes are coming." "Don't go dragonshape druid because it's being reworked." "Sorry, we're taking back the mage BAB bonus, if you built a character for it you're out of luck." And I'm definitely not making a Spellsword because I know there's a really good chance they're going to be fundamentally different a few updates from now. Players shouldn't dread updates, that's not healthy!

I love all the tinkering and reworking but I really think there needs to be a way to adjust existing characters if the class mechanics change. And I mean, Barbarians are a base NWN class, we're not talking about an experimental "use at your own risk" path here.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Now that rage mechanics have been established, will we look at more thematic mechanics to help differentiate? We've talked a long time about totems, bloodlust mechanics, "un-civilized" ideas, more mechanics built around surviving, etc.

Barbarians were often considered in the "classes of the wild" (alongside ranger, and druid). I'd like to see this take shape.

Also, Tetra, please see my thread in the Build&Mechanics subforum for information on pipelines for class tweaks!

[gilescorey]

Going for whirlwind attack on a non-WM is hilariously bad. It's not only a ginormous feat-cost, it's an ability score cost too. Please do NOT run around with non-WM whirlwinding characters, this has been a statement for your own personal health and safety by the Ministry of Love.

[Ork]

So far, nothing but good things to say about this change. It really adds a depth the barbarian class never had.

[Cortex]

Dexterity 13+, intelligence 13+, expertise, dodge, mobility, spring attack, base attack bonus +4.

Short of a meme WM barbarian fighter without UMD/tumble, you're not getting whirlwind.

[Commie]

Dexterity 13+, intelligence 13+, expertise, dodge, mobility, spring attack, base attack bonus +4.

Short of a meme WM barbarian fighter without UMD/tumble, you're not getting whirlwind.

https://pastebin.com/KQ4q6H0C

With the half orc gift you start at the same STR as any non +2 str race barbarian, and still have tons of skill points, and umd/tumble, and a bonus ac from fighter. You don't get imp expertise, but you are getting 5 free undispellable AC from barb/fighter soooo

The question is, why does this build out-preform a WM in damage/ac? Even if you go 1 handed and give up the 3 rage tier bonus I think it would still come out on top due to con to damage and the free +10 dmg. And it still likely has more AC. And also class abilities like fast movement and free DR.

Not comparing this to -any- barb build, just the WM build.

Am I missing something here? I might be, but don't see it.

[Cortex]

Its survivability is mediocre, the damage it gets is not worth it.

Whirlwind is a bonus, not something you build towards.

[Commie]

Its survivability is mediocre, the damage it gets is not worth it.

Whirlwind is a bonus, not something you build towards.

But, it's got more surviveability then the standard WM (that build has dank base HP, more then a str WM build), more AC, the damage might be ever so slightly less, but it works even on foes that cant be crit (so you never hit a dungeon that just disables your key class feature), you still have DR, fast movement, WWA, etc.

My point isn't that it's a good build, it's that if you build a WWA barb you're still better then a str WM in all areas except for slightly more crit damage, but you just have shitloads more base damage and actual class features so it's far less relevant.

That's my point here, is that the barb changes made str wm irrelevant. Even if you gimp yourself for WWA you're still better, and since you get WWA, you end up with a key feature you describe as a 'bonus perks the WM has over barbarian.'

[Cortex]

Barbarian AC:
10 base
5 armor
3 armor bonus
2 DEX (if they manage with buffs etc)
4 barbarian bonus
6 tumble
2 armor skin
3 helmet
1 boot

35, 41 with a tower shield.

WM AC:
10 base
8 armor
3 armor bonus
1 DEX
3 fighter bonus
6 tumble
2 armor skin
3 helmet
1 boot
1 dodge feat

38, 44 with a tower shield.

Barbarian AB (assuming STR/CON balance horc/dwarf)

14 STR
3 WF EWF
25 BAB
2 barb rage bonus
3 weapon enhancement

47, 49 if 2h, lower if outside rage, and even lower if not horc/dwarf.

WM AB

14 to 15 STR
4 WF EWF SWF
25 BAB
1 epic prowess
3 weapon enhancement

47-48 AB, 49-50 if 2h, full time. I think you can get more but I forget how right now.

Barbarian Damage(also assuming horc/dwarf):
2h:
21 STR
2d10+2(average 13) rage
6 WS EWS
6 weapon damage
7 base weapon damage(greatsword)
5-6 CON passive damage.

58-59 damage during rage, 45-46 out of rage.

1h:
14 STR
10 rage
6 WS EWS
6 weapon damage
3.5 base weapon damage(scimitar)
5-6 CON damage

44.5-45.5 during rage, 34.5-35.5 off rage.

WM damage:
2h:
21-23 STR
6 WS EWS
6 weapon damage
7 base weapon(greatsword)

40-43 damage.

1h:
14-15 STR
6 WS EWS
6 weapon damage
3.5 base weapon(scimitar)

29.5-30.5 damage.

tldr

AC: WM has more AC than the barbarian, but the barbarian has DR, and more DI during rage.
AB: WM has more AB than the barbarian, especially in rage down time.
Flat Damage: Barbarian has more flat damage, especially during rage.
Total Damage: Due to WM's criticals, the WM will always out damage a barbarian, they have no down time, and due to massive critical damage, can more easily hurt DR/DI based mobs/characters, and interrupt spells.

I could go on about saves and how WMs still can itemize better than barbarians to better protect themselves against magic, but I wanna play something after all that boring stuff above.

[Commie]

That's cool, and I appreciate the breakdown, I really do.

To me, however, I firmly believe that a wm gives up far, far too much for what the barbarian gains. Not to mention, the key class features of wm, aka the crit mod stuff, simply do nothing against, sometimes, entire swaths of content, making the "always on" aspect of the wm argument not valid (barb keeps class features while not raging, for example, and no dungeons prevent rage to my knowledge).

I feel that late fighter bonus's are not enough given how much is lost by going fight man over rage man, and I think your post shows this clearly.

[flower]

I am just surprised by the new era of giving out full ab attack on top of regular ones.

+1 per kensai +1 per feat +1 per haste

I do not really think it matters if WM (or anyone else) has AB by 2-4 points higher than barbarian when barbarian gets like 4 full AB attacks per rounds, and plus three others on top of that.

I understood this on a kensai who is limited in use of items (but now with potions, not that much), but why to increase number of attacks in general, even if given by epic feat?

On top teamed up with a fear aura...

9 attacks on dual wielding barbarian kensai, when hasted, five of them at full AB

[Commie]

I am just surprised by the new era of giving out full ab attack on top of regular ones.

+1 per kensai +1 per feat +1 per haste

I do not really think it matters if WM (or anyone else) has AB by 2-4 points higher than barbarian when barbarian gets like 4 full AB attacks per rounds, and plus three others on top of that.

I understood this on a kensai who is limited in use of items (but now with potions, not that much), but why to increase number of attacks in general, even if given by epic feat?

On top teamed up with a fear aura...

9 attacks on dual wielding barbarian kensai, when hasted, five of them at full AB

9 attacks with five at full ab is pretty good but is it as good as the 'bonus perks the WM has over barbarian?' Remember WM has on average one more ab and a little more ac.

[hmm2]

-

[Commie]

As someone who plays a Legacy Barbarian Powerbuild.
i can be outdone by the Cookie Cutter(wich i love by the way)
Fighter/WM/Rogue of the same level.

if i was going for pvp, i would do the F/WM/R
because they are better.

That's likely because you're a legacy build and not the twf blender kensai that everyone is rolling or rolling humility goblins to reroll so they can half-orc-tiefling for 24 starting str and then go barbarian.

[flower]

And why you compare everything to WM? You got also other classes, like rangers out there.

Barbarian can still lower that AC by taunt, and when you swing 3/ four attacks at +50 AB per round you should hit often. What AC can achieve F-WM build? 60-65 with expetise? Without expertise barbarian will hit him relieble imho. And then we got hundreds of characters who ARE NOT WMs and their AC runs from 40-50.

If WM is two hander his AC is even lower and you got another 3 attacks with chance to land a hit.

But if the goal is to have only two melee builds to compete, then fine.