Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

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Astral
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:40 am

huh..

So if you go kensai and drink a haste potion, then drink true strike potion and attacks someone with a greatsword, you're pretty much going to destroy them in one round-- no. make it one flurry. my first impression is that is sounds sick on paper.
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Lorkas
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Lorkas » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:24 am

Sure, if your target stands there doing nothing while you drink 2 potions (one very short duration) and close the distance to them.

Astral
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:36 am

Yes of course they can also drink a haste potion and run. That's probably the only thing they can do while the rage active. Does the rage still have the same duration as before? 2d4 + con in rounds and 1 minute of cooldown when it ends?
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-XXX-
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by -XXX- » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:13 am

Lorkas wrote:Sure, if your target stands there doing nothing while you drink 2 potions (one very short duration) and close the distance to them.

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Lorkas
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Lorkas » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:22 am

Are you talking about the enemy using time stop while the barb is buffing up?

Because the barb won't have time during a time stop to drink two potions, close to melee distance, and get attacks in before they respond at all. They'd have to either drink those two potions and then time stop, which gives the enemy time to do something before attacks start, or they'd have to open with time stop, in which case they're wasting their one time stop of the encounter on drinking two potions.

Also, kensai can't use time stop.

Astral
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:49 pm

screw time stop and haste. just charge with 6 apr. Enemy options:
1. drink a haste potion and run
2. invis/sanctuary and run.
3. basically run in circles until the rage wears off or until a third party changes the odds. The barbarian is not going to care about anything you do.
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Cortex
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:56 pm

Stealth/sanctuary, wait until rage is off. Kill barbarian.

Kensai barbarian is the epitome of melee powerhouse, and is likely to beat most melee in a fair contest. BUT, they are much more vulnerable to sabotage, and their counters are even more glaring.
:)

Astral
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:00 pm

Cortex wrote:Stealth/sanctuary, wait until rage is off. Kill barbarian.

Kensai barbarian is the epitome of melee powerhouse, and is likely to beat most melee in a fair contest. BUT, they are much more vulnerable to sabotage, and their counters are even more glaring.
That's why I prefer cot over fighter lvls. and with kensai adding +10 spot on top of what I'd already invest in this skill, I think it would cover all but the REALLY good stealthers.
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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Hunter gave a really good post breaking down what barbarian now means for current builds. I really appreciate that.

However.

And without spoiling anything, do the barbarian changes open up new avenues for class combinations that maybe were not self evident before? If so, what might they be?

When I read the change log, the new barbarian screams half orc double weapon ranger/barbarian/X. Maybe that was me, but there seems to be way more synergy there.

Also, when can we remove the lawful requirement from barbarian? It's stupid and don't get me going on it's implications.
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Cortex
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:18 pm

Honestly, the only reason I personally don't want lawful barbarians is because how it'd interact with other classes like monk, DD and paladin.
:)

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Lorkas
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Lorkas » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:20 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Also, when can we remove the lawful requirement from barbarian? It's stupid and don't get me going on it's implications.
I agree with the sentiment, but personally I'd rather rename the class to berserker or battlerager to resolve the problem than open it up to lawful alignments.

SwampFoot
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by SwampFoot » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:30 pm

First test since the change I see a message: "Added 6 bonus damage from base constitution". This message appears armed, unarmed, no matter what. Actual bonus damage I see, however, is +1d4 bludgeoning.

Is this bonus not working right?

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Cortex
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:39 pm

SwampFoot wrote:First test since the change I see a message: "Added 6 bonus damage from base constitution". This message appears armed, unarmed, no matter what. Actual bonus damage I see, however, is +1d4 bludgeoning.

Is this bonus not working right?
Fixed for next reset.
:)

TimeAdept
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:23 pm

Cortex wrote:Except its not a penalty. You dont lose stats by going sub 18 CON, but you gain bonuses for meeting the requisite.

Right now, weapon rage dmg applies only to the weapon equipped at time of raging.
You do lose stats though. The update even words it as "reduced by". It's semantics arguing over wording, yeah, but the point of my argument still stands, I think. No other class is penalized for not meeting an arbitrary high positive stat number, with a reduction to their class features. I suppose you could argue caster classes not meeting like level 8/9 spell requirements? I dunno.

If you want to give Barbarian an 18 con pre-reqs, sure, that's fine, do that, but that's what it is. There's 0 reason to ever make a barb with less thn 18 con because you're penalized for it now. It just feels like a superfluous addition that isn't enhancing the class, or adding to build viability or variety in any form - it's just another pre req you need to function now.

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Sockss
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Sockss » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:06 pm

Pretty sure the CON requirement is to prevent some otherwise border-op builds being created, so I'd disagree it was arbitrary.

The rest, as you said, is arguing semantics; so there's really no grounds for argument? (You clearly understand the spirit of the update notes to pose that anyway)
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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:47 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Cortex wrote:Except its not a penalty. You dont lose stats by going sub 18 CON, but you gain bonuses for meeting the requisite.

Right now, weapon rage dmg applies only to the weapon equipped at time of raging.
You do lose stats though. The update even words it as "reduced by". It's semantics arguing over wording, yeah, but the point of my argument still stands, I think. No other class is penalized for not meeting an arbitrary high positive stat number, with a reduction to their class features. I suppose you could argue caster classes not meeting like level 8/9 spell requirements? I dunno.

If you want to give Barbarian an 18 con pre-reqs, sure, that's fine, do that, but that's what it is. There's 0 reason to ever make a barb with less thn 18 con because you're penalized for it now. It just feels like a superfluous addition that isn't enhancing the class, or adding to build viability or variety in any form - it's just another pre req you need to function now.
You're having trouble with the "reduced by" language.

If instead the barb update had been written as follows:
Rage Powers scaling:

Level 12: +1 AB during rage. +2 Dodge AC.
Level 16: 5% Physical Immunity during rage.
Level 20: +2 Dodge AC.

- If the barbarian has 18 Con or more, an additional 1AB is granted, and an additional 5% Damage Immunity is granted after level 4
Would you be happy?

It's mechanically no different, and either way, the barb is getting more AB and more DI in rage than he did before the update.

Plenty of other classes gate the best features behind a certain level of stat investment, and this is a perfectly legitimate thing to do for balance reasons, because it reduces some of the the possibilities by increasing investment cost.


TimeAdept
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:18 am

I'm just not a fan is all. We agree to disagree.

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Peppermint
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Peppermint » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:41 am

I hate wizards. Can we remove the INT requirement from their DC bonuses?

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gilescorey
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by gilescorey » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:41 am

I hate. Can we remove the requirement from their bonuses?

TimeAdept
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:29 am

Peppermint wrote:I hate wizards. Can we remove the INT requirement from their DC bonuses?
That feels disingenuous to my argument. I also acknowledge casters requiring high casting stats as the one other situation along with bards with Perform where high positive numbers are required to gain full access to standard class features, vs. optional feats. It's not a mechanic I'm fond of outside of where it's already being applied, since it feels like a stat requirement being appended to the class - a stat that will already likely be taken to 22 on most every barb existing for EDR 3. I'd be curious as to what powerbuilds are being stopped by requiring 18 CON for the full rage bonuses, is all.

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Peppermint
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Peppermint » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:05 am

You're right; I was a little snarky. I was in a rotten mood and should've stayed off the forum entirely. I apologize for being dismissive.

I'll let Cortex and his team cover the details aside of that.

Ramza
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Ramza » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:48 pm

I think your all missing the elephant in the room. *Ahems, straitens some papers* How about we apply bonuses for Raging on Horses. Style Points.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Seekeepeek » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:07 pm


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RedGiant
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by RedGiant » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:07 pm

Peppermint wrote:I hate wizards.
I knew it! I KNEW it! I've made entire threads about this...

Now it's out in the open. Peps, you are exposed!

This is like that moment in a few good men when the Colonel finally admits "Yes I ordered it, and I would DO IT AGAIN!!!"

LOL
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xXBloodAngelXx142
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by xXBloodAngelXx142 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:49 pm

I think new barb/rage update is pretty neat except one thing.. Change Thundering Rage +1 attack bonus, it makes Kensai Barb too OP, you can easily outdamage pure WM. I would suggest increase dmg, it gives massive crit + daze on hit in vanilla nwn, maybe instead of additional APR give Bleeding effect?

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