Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

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Cerk Evermoore
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Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Is it a nerf? Is it a buff? Only time will tell, I am just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the new change.

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Hunter548
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:38 pm

It really depends on how you built your barbarian.

If you built him with 22 con for EDR and the rest in strength, you probably play about the same, just all your buffs are on hitting people not getting hit.

If you built him as an all strength 2 handed kensai meme machine, you do hilarious amounts of damage but are probably kind of squishy.

If you built him as an all-con biteback machine with 6 AC, you're probably hugely nerfed.

Basically, barbs will have more trouble with groups of 15+ level 15/20s, but will be much scarier vs people who know what they're doing and thus that the biteback wasn't hugely helpful against.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Ramza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:39 pm

Eh, it removes a lot of the pressure Barbarians had in regards to the burst in melee they could pull off. It also standardizes them into the AC meta more with Biteback's removal. More DPS than a Blackguard, More Tanky than a WM... But with very little unique factors coming into the table unless your using T-rage. More tanky in general, with more reliable DPS. But a loss of the unique position biteback put them in.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Opustus » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:43 pm

Drooool that juicy damage. 2d10+4+10CON is all damage that scales with crit, either with high crit range for consistent damage or with high crit threat for instagibbing. Barbie/WM/Fighter with a Bard might be the scariest thing... as a Kensai.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:50 pm

Ramza wrote:Eh, it removes a lot of the pressure Barbarians had in regards to the burst in melee they could pull off. It also standardizes them into the AC meta more with Biteback's removal. More DPS than a Blackguard, More Tanky than a WM... But with very little unique factors coming into the table unless your using T-rage. More tanky in general, with more reliable DPS. But a loss of the unique position biteback put them in.
Er. No. It does the exact opposite - Barbarians are now really bursty when they rage. Especially if you go for a two handed weapon and 25 strength which, shock surprise, also doesn't really care about AC (Because it's going to be bad regardless). Previous barb damage was entirely dependent on the opponent deciding to punch you.
Opustus wrote:Drooool that juicy damage. 2d10+4+10CON is all damage that scales with crit, either with high crit range for consistent damage or with high crit threat for instagibbing. Barbie/WM/Fighter with a Bard might be the scariest thing... as a Kensai.
Keep in mind that that damage is only 2d10+4+CON if you are a pure barbarian, since it runs off barbarian levels. You also only get your base con modifier to damage, not your full 10.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Ramza » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:02 pm

Still with the STR/Con Setup just having 22 for EDR is sitll giving you +6 base dmg.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:14 pm

20Barbarian/7Weapon Master/3 Rogue with large size (ogre) or two-handed weapons got a pretty massive buff.

Large weapon x3/x4 crit modifier becomes x4/x5 crit modifier with 2d10+2 bonus physical damage and an achievable 5 bonus damage from CON on top of that. This maths out to a potential 135 extra damage on a crit. Regardless of race, this can achieve 20% damage immunity vs. all physical damage and DR 7/- per hit.

It's feat-starved, but it's meaty.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:28 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:20Barbarian/7Weapon Master/3 Rogue with large size (ogre) or two-handed weapons got a pretty massive buff.

Large weapon x3/x4 crit modifier becomes x4/x5 crit modifier with 2d10+2 bonus physical damage and an achievable 5 bonus damage from CON on top of that. This maths out to a potential 135 extra damage on a crit. Regardless of race, this can achieve 20% damage immunity vs. all physical damage and DR 7/- per hit.

It's feat-starved, but it's meaty.
Extremely feat starved -- And also very MAD, since you need decent con for damage boosts. I think you manage like 16 strength after gifts -- Decidedly average.

Featwise, you get 8 pre epic as a human. 6 go to the WM pre-reqs (Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, WF), leaving you just barely enough to pick up blind fight, and then your choice of KD, Toughness or Disarm (Mind that non-WM barbs get all three, if they want). Epic feats are probably EWF, Terrifying Rage (You probably can't get either Mighty or Thundering rage, both of which I think are better), Epic Prowess to shore up your lower AB, and a single epic strength to help with the same. No EDR, or a lot of other things I'd want on a barb, and your strength is still decidedly average. You can probably drop your con below 18, but I'd want the free +2 ab, personally.

Would not recommend playing this, personally. You just sacrifice too much for the WM levels. If you're really set on it, drop the rogue for some fighter levels to help your feat layout, and just go kensai.
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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:35 pm

Hello.
Terrifying Rage:

Debuff: +5% Automatic Spell Failure per 7 Barbarian levels


IF fails saving throw.

Surely this does not qualify as text-book automatic spell failure, if it first has to overcome a save?

Alternative Suggestion:

- Lower the overall damage bonus scaling for barbarian levels.
- Give Barbarians base Automatic Spell failure on hit chance just for being a barbarian e.g 5%.
- Improve the Barbarian Automatic Spell failure on hit chance -- when they additionally are raging.

Also, I would humbly suggest the new changes are very rage-focused and very damage-focused. Perhaps there is scope for a minor will save bonus whilst not raging to represent the barbaric traditional / stubborn mind?

I do like that scaling Will bonus. :)

-- Tath.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by flower » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:04 pm

Did you do math how high the DC on will can be? It comes to me around 40+. No chance for a saving (no spellcraft!).

And spell failure on hit is a bit off (like, a lot).

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by taoofbalance » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:26 pm

Can Barbarians activate magical items or use other items when raged?

If so, I suggest taking away the ability to do anything other then attack when raged. No reading scrolls or stopping to drink potions or bandage when freaking out.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Diilicious » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:47 am

taoofbalance wrote:Can Barbarians activate magical items or use other items when raged?

If so, I suggest taking away the ability to do anything other then attack when raged. No reading scrolls or stopping to drink potions or bandage when freaking out.
Peppermint wrote:Being unable to use wands/scrolls while raging would nerf barbarians into obsolescence. Suddenly, they'd have no answer to DR of any kind (which flat out neutralizes all rage bonuses), let alone the usual suite of disablers.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:39 am

flower wrote:Did you do math how high the DC on will can be? It comes to me around 40+. No chance for a saving (no spellcraft!).
I am curious about your math here. And the assumed stats of the character in question.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Memelord » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:48 am

flower wrote:Did you do math how high the DC on will can be? It comes to me around 40+. No chance for a saving (no spellcraft!).

And spell failure on hit is a bit off (like, a lot).
Average Barbarian is 21 Barb/6 Fighter/3 Rogue, with 22 Constitution; calculations done with that in mind.

With proper Order of Operations, DC is 5 + (Intimidate Ranks/6) + (Barbarian Levels/2) + Base CON modifier.

That is 5 + (33/6) + (21/2) + 6 -> 5 + 5.5 + 10.5 + 6 -> (presuming everything rounds down) DC26; you can get it up to DC31 if you nerf yourself by going Pure Barbarian or higher by taking more CON (which reduces your STR to the point of questionable viability) but that's it. DC26-31, for an ability that's almost always taken as a level 30 capstone ability.

Your average 20/7/3 WM should have around 13 Will w/o any buffs, save feats (which they honestly have enough bonus feats to afford) or gear. A simple Remove Fear spell (which can be fairly cheaply bought in scroll or wand form, being a L1 spell) provides a +4 bonus against this, making it already less than a 50/50 shot of success - with one buff and no gear on the WM. The two Will save feats (which, again, fighters have feats out the wazoo) means that they're almost guaranteed to save against it 100% of the time without any gear, and a single L1 buff.

And that's a 20/7/3 WM, the build that'd be the weakest against it. Basically any other build will have either more far base Will, or something that will give them additional protection against it (Paladins are outright immune, Blackguards get CHA bonus to Will, and Rogues can roll twice if they select that bonus.)

As it is, Terrifying Rage is pretty much worthless against an opponent that's on roughly equal ground with you. It's just good for debuffing the lowbies you were already going to slaughter in a single round's worth of attacks anyways.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:52 am

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:Hello.
Terrifying Rage:

Debuff: +5% Automatic Spell Failure per 7 Barbarian levels


IF fails saving throw.

Surely this does not qualify as text-book automatic spell failure, if it first has to overcome a save?
A valid point. Feel free to think of it as just "Spell Failure." As for the suggested alternatives, imposing spell failure on opposing characters is a strong ability, and is best justified with epic feat plus skill point investment.

Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:Also, I would humbly suggest the new changes are very rage-focused and very damage-focused. Perhaps there is scope for a minor will save bonus whilst not raging to represent the barbaric traditional / stubborn mind?
It's true that the changes are very rage-focused. Raging is the core barbarian mechanic and a lot of the abilities are built around that.

With regard to being vulnerable to will save when not raging, you might find the cleansing effect of Mighty Rage to be useful. Rage is a free action now, and Mighty Rage should allow you to break free in case you were surprised by, say, a paralysis spell.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:53 am

Memelord wrote: (Barbarian Levels/2)
It's total character levels, not only barbarian levels. This is why the change log uses the term 'Hit Dice' and not class levels.

A barbarian with 30 total character levels and 6 base CON modifier can be expected to get 31 DC. If they have intimidate on their gear, they can improve that to 33-ish. Anyone that goes far enough to get ESF intimidate can get the DC to the mid thirties.

Edit: Also keep in mind that Terrifying Rage remains an aura. People passing in and out of the aura can be subject to multiple saving throws. Also, 'intimidate ranks' includes bonuses from feats and gear. That should've been made more clear.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Memelord » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:04 am

Ah, all right, I stand corrected - DC jumps to 31, which can still be fairly reliably warded off with a single L1 buff and a few pieces of unisave gear, if you felt like dropping two of the 5-6 slush feats a cookie-cutter WM build should have into Saves feats (since you can't spam Clarity reliably anymore.)

And are you certain it counts things from gear and feats? The phrasing "ranks" on Arelith has always implied that gear is not counted (see: Lore, pre-nerf Appraise, etc)

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:07 am

Memelord wrote:And are you certain it counts things from gear and feats? The phrasing "ranks" on Arelith has always implied that gear is not counted (see: Lore, pre-nerf Appraise, etc)
Yes. I'm basing that on familiarity with the script in question, and not the changelog's phrasing.
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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:50 am

"If the barbarian has 17 CON or lower, the AB bonus is reduced by 1(minimum 0), and the bonus physical immunities reduced by 5% (minimum 0%)."

CON from gear is included yes?

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:26 am

Seekeepeek wrote:"If the barbarian has 17 CON or lower, the AB bonus is reduced by 1(minimum 0), and the bonus physical immunities reduced by 5% (minimum 0%)."

CON from gear is included yes?
No.
:)

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Dreams » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:02 am

If you enter a rage with one weapon out, could the damage also be applied to the next weapon you draw? For example, switching between sword + board and 2-hander, would both weapons have damage for the duration of the rage?

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:22 am

meh.. my barbarian have 16 base CON. ah well...
Cortex wrote:
Seekeepeek wrote:"If the barbarian has 17 CON or lower, the AB bonus is reduced by 1(minimum 0), and the bonus physical immunities reduced by 5% (minimum 0%)."

CON from gear is included yes?
No.
meh.. my barbarian have 16 base CON. ah well.. can't win every time.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:36 am

A barb is already incentivized for going high CON - punishing them for not hitting an arbitrary number seems unnecessary. No other class in the game has a class feature that actively penalizes them* for not hitting a certain, relatively high, positive stat. It'd be like if Fighters got -1 to weapon spec's damage if they didn't already have 17 STR, or if Smite Evil did less damage if you didn' have a minimum CON level, or a Druid's wildshapes being worse if they didn't meet a certain WIS threshhold - the classes are already receiving bonuses for having these stats, you don't also need to punish them for not having the stat high enough, IMO.

*not counting BG's dark blessing penalizing your saves if your CHA goes negative, and not counting Bard Perform - it's sort of the entire class, but even then i'm not a fan of needing to hit arbitrary perform numbers to function

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:42 am

well the +2 con went into +2 str.. that gives a permanent +1 ab and +1 dmg compared to +1 ab, 5% soak and +1 dmg
but +2 str work even outside of rage.. so it's no big deal really.
Last edited by Seekeepeek on Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:56 am

Except its not a penalty. You dont lose stats by going sub 18 CON, but you gain bonuses for meeting the requisite.

Right now, weapon rage dmg applies only to the weapon equipped at time of raging.
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