Barbarian changes discussion - What does it mean?

[RamblerTeo]

I think new barb/rage update is pretty neat except one thing.. Change Thundering Rage +1 attack bonus, it makes Kensai Barb too OP, you can easily outdamage pure WM. I would suggest increase dmg, it gives massive crit + daze on hit in vanilla nwn, maybe instead of additional APR give Bleeding effect?

rly makes you thonk

[Astral]

As far as I understand the meaning of all this, the barbarian, during their rage, is supposed to be OP. The counterplay is to not fight a raging barbarian unless you bring more numbers and even then you might all die. I think thundering rage is a very hard investment (meaning there wont be any cha investment in the build) and +1 apr is not that broken. Also remember that weapons masters still have more ab and ac than barbarians so they can play around the rage more easily.

[Sockss]

How bad is the AC of the person you're attacking to be out-damaging a WM?

[OJDrinker]

How the hell am I supposed to make a viable build if things are constantly getting changed? I recently made a barbarian based on the effects of rage... as you might imagine, now the concept AND the character is utterly worthless. Thanks.
Oh, and rage being con-based is really really stupid. (Is profanity allowed here? I'm assuming not, so I can't properly convey this point.) Do you even know what "rage" is? Think about it. Rage and hp may be connected, but rage and con is NOT.
I know this server has more players than a southern megachurch (so you don't care if I leave), but the constant screwing with things is really starting to irritate me. Pick something and stick with it, this isn't WoW and it shouldn't be.

[RedGiant]

How the hell am I supposed to make a viable build if things are constantly getting changed? I recently made a barbarian based on the effects of rage... as you might imagine, now the concept AND the character is utterly worthless. Thanks.

Despite the rage quit ending, this is an entirely legitimate gripe. We need to stabilize/finalize the basic classes at least.

[Cortex]

The barbarian may rage, gaining a +4 morale bonus to strength and constitution and +2 to all will saving throws, in exchange for a -2 penalty to armor class. The barbarian may use this ability once per day at first level, +1 use per day at level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, extending into epic levels.

The duration is the barbarian's constitution modifier (before the rage) plus 7 rounds, plus an extra 2 rounds for greater rage.

[Hunter548]

Oh, and rage being con-based is really really stupid. (Is profanity allowed here? I'm assuming not, so I can't properly convey this point.) Do you even know what "rage" is? Think about it. Rage and hp may be connected, but rage and con is NOT.

You know rage and con affect each other in both pnp, the base game, and the previous version of rage, right?

[Sockss]

Rage and con were connected before, they were also connected before that.

I fail to see- damnit, Cortex & Hunter.

[OJDrinker]

Original rage gave a bonus to con, which was almost meaningless since the extra hp went away at the end. It was not based on con, the only thing con affected was the duration of the rage, which is the kind of thing con affects. (I do like when servers have rage give temporary hp instead of con bonus.) You didn't get more damage from con, you didn't get better bonuses from con, you didn't require high con in any way. What I see is rage (both this and the previous) encouraging players to have more con instead of str... therefore having lower chance to hit. Is this a stereotype or something? "Me barbarian, me hit hard, me big dumb slow"

[Lorkas]

Not really. The last system encouraged going as much CON as possible and just riding out the fight on biteback as your source of damage.

This new system gives you a bonus for higher CON in the form of extra damage, but if the barbarian switched 2 points of CON for 2 points of STR, they'd get damage and AB. The other factor is that CON bonus damage doesn't count toward the NWN-default (STR*0.5) bonus to damage for 2-handing. So the CON damage can't really drive someone toward CON--taking too much of it will make you deal slightly less damage than a STR barbarian, but hit far less often.

The other case where CON is called on is that you get 1 AB and 5% damage immunity for having at least 18. That is not a scaling bonus, and thus is not going to give incentives to take more than 18 in CON, which doesn't even take away from the STR score of a race that gets +2 CON by default, and only takes 2 STR away from any other race (which is fully paid for by the fact that it gives +1 AB).

Basically, the best barbarians will have 18 CON if they don't want EDR feats, or 22 CON if they do want EDR feats. At the very most, that's taking away 2 AB from a barb who would take a standard 16 CON (14 base + gift).

[Karris the Anarchist]

I've been playing around with a pure barb to have fun with maximizing rage DPS. Going for the 3 epic rage feats and two epic DR feats (feat starved)

On AC considerations...

10 natural + 5 chainmail + 2 DEX + 3 AC bonus + 3 Deflection + 3 Natural + 1 Dodge + 3 CC tumble + 4 Rage Dodge bonus = 34 AC, 30 when not raging.

How is that OP? Granted, this particular character is all about those APR and damage output, but even with a mighty HP pool and a fair deal of DR/damage immunity, this will still be squishy.

Code: Select all

Horc for Ambidex

1	Exotic
3	Two Weapon
6	Knockdown
9	Improved Two Weapon
12	Weapon Focus Double Axe
15	Blidn Fight
18	Improved Crit Double Axe
21	Epic DR
24	Epic DR, Epic Rage 1
28	Epic Rage
30	Epic Rage

[Cortex]

The AC bonus is permanent, not exclusive to rage. I also highly recommend getting a tumble dip class if you're building AC, and the mandatory Expertise/Improved Expertise.

With your same stats, minus the natural AC, to make it 31:
Add a tower shield for +6.
A boot for +1.
A tumble class for +3.

And you already got 41, before bark, haste, expertise or other buffs.

[Ramza]

So why are we continuing the cancerous AC meta?

[Seekeepeek]

The AC bonus is permanent, not exclusive to rage. I also highly recommend getting a tumble dip class if you're building AC, and the mandatory Expertise/Improved Expertise.

the +4 ac (lvl 20 barbarian) from using medium and clothing armor? i just tested it in game. only get active when you rage

[Cortex]

The AC bonus is permanent, not exclusive to rage. I also highly recommend getting a tumble dip class if you're building AC, and the mandatory Expertise/Improved Expertise.

the +4 ac (lvl 20 barbarian) from using medium and clothing armor? i just tested it in game. only get active when you rage

So I've been informed, it's due a fix.

[Hunter548]

So why are we continuing the cancerous AC meta?

What cancerous AC meta? All characters need ac, that's not a "meta" anymore than "all characters need saves".

[Commie]

So why are we continuing the cancerous AC meta?

What cancerous AC meta? All characters need acn that's mot a "meta" any more than "all characters need saves".

I hear the new barbarian/kensai changes are pushing a 'max apr' meta, and half-orc max-str dual-wielding bane of enemies 'blender' rangers are showing up as a popular alternative to the high-str barbarian/wm.

[Xuuldar]

The AC bonus is permanent, not exclusive to rage. I also highly recommend getting a tumble dip class if you're building AC, and the mandatory Expertise/Improved Expertise.

With your same stats, minus the natural AC, to make it 31:
Add a tower shield for +6.
A boot for +1.
A tumble class for +3.

And you already got 41, before bark, haste, expertise or other buffs.

I gotta be honest, I just don't get it, it is supposed to be a barbarian, not a WM that is only good half the time, which is what it has become. Why would I make play a barbarian that is built like a WM when I can just play the WM which is as good if not better and oh yeah, he is that good all the time, not just when he can rage. Giving AC bonuses to a Barb is kinda like giving AB to a wizard.

I also don't get this near requirement for the cross class level dips. Why can there not be bonuses that kick in 28+ that make a pure class viable instead of designing everything with the mandatory level dips?

[RedGiant]

I also don't get this near requirement for the cross class level dips. Why can there not be bonuses that kick in 28+ that make a pure class viable instead of designing everything with the mandatory level dips?

I don't mind many of the Arelith changes to hard-coded classes. In fact, I think many are fantastic (e.g. Blackguard, Ranger, Druid). As above, I think most energy in these discussion come from changes to basic mechanics that ruin existing characters without fixes/remediation being offered (e.g. Kensai, Barbarian).

That being said, I think Xuuldar has hit on a principle that is already somewhat in progress. I really like the 28+ perks, as have already been implemented for Fighters, Chaos Mages, Druids, etc. If the staff does have a master plan where all thing balance out one day, I think the 28+ pure class perk a worthy building principle. Dip classes shouldn't be a requirement, and there should always be a trade off to pick up that functionality. Without the 28+ perk, currently some dip class combos are just better without any sacrifice.

So, in short, +++ Xuuldar.

[flower]

Simple because nwn is based on multiclassing?

[Giftstoff]

I also agree that making multiclassing required to have any level of power is unhealthy. Old barb rage giving +2 str, +2 con was bad. But making it give -2 ac was good, it distances barbarian from fighter or wm.

Two high ac, high damage classes. Barb just has raw burst damage instead of sustained crits and more apr. Otherwise the two are nearly the same class, expecially with so much space left to multiclass into more fighter or dip classes. Where are the level 24-28 perks?

[jinroh]

One thing I do find odd is the lack of a -relevel option when there are major changes to classes.

The barbarian of today is going to play differently than the one of last month, no biteback, higher AC, more damage outside of rage, ability to break out of CC, etc. I think that for many barbarians it is to the point that it would feel like a completely different character mechanically. So the character already has a stark difference than what it was before.

To someone that can easily move from 3-30 in <2 months, this may not seem like a big deal, delevel and redo it. To ones that it takes 6-12 months of time either due to playstyle, playtime, etc it can be a daunting prospect. Similarly if you enjoy playing a variety of characters or tend to roll them often this is less of a worry than if you only have 1 or 2 that you focus on.

[RedGiant]

Simple because nwn is based on multiclassing?

Sure NWN was designed to allow multiclassing, and so does DnD upon which it is based. That's quite a bit different than requiring it, or making it so ridiculously optimal that pure classing is no longer a viable option.

This, I would say, is an accident of design decision in NWN. Long story short, neither NWN nor DnD were originally conceived with 30 (let alone 40) levels in mind. In DnD these levels were added in supplemental rules and in NWN they were added in the expansion packs.

Many early RP servers limited themselves to 20 levels for the simple fact that past this threshold, the balance of the game gets continually skewed toward multicasting, dips, and builds. A 20 lvl server avoids some of these conundrums because the base classes really only come into their own in 20th lvls. While multicasting still produces benefits in the 20 lvl scenario, pure classing remains a much more viable option. For example, any casting class that multi-classes has to think long and hard, not just because of the reduction in caster level and spell penetration, but also because they short themselves on spell slots, spells per day, and, in some cases, spells known.

Ergo, this is a real choice. Since we are a 30 lvl server, and many builds are produce amazing synergy with almost no sacrifice, rebuilding that balance takes intentionality and custom content. The 28+ perks, which are already at least half-implemented, do this elegantly.


*Note: Arelith already has some multi-classing restrictions, i.e. the "take three" rule. This sensibly prohibits the 28 Sorc, 1 Pal, 1 Monk builds that would inevitably ensue. The 28+ perk is built around Arelith's custom restriction, and I think the genius in the implementation so far is that it doesn't take anything away from those who want to "build", rather it gives something to pure classes.

Everyone wins.

[Cortex]

You get bonus feats for going pure barbarian plus some more DR, and further scaling at level 24 and 28.

On the topic of relevels/delevels...

This change only really hurt barbarians who went full CON, getting 24-26 or even more CON in exchange of mediocre STR, a build choice that was, honestly, really bad at anything other than immensely punishing low skill players, Arelith is not a competitive game, so it should have some form of low floor for most classes, even when fighting them. Other than that, I fail to see builds that were "destroyed" by this change.

On an addendum, I can't actually give anybody a relevel even if I wanted, that decision ultimately falls on the admins' shoulders.

[Commie]

With today's changes, giving a barb 4 always-on dodge ac at 20 barbarian, does that just make them outright better then fighters?

At this point, what does a fighter/wm have over all those rage/passive perks?