Shifter

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

OutOfChwi
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:53 pm

Shifter

Post by OutOfChwi » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:46 am

I know this has been brought up previously and I realise its at the bottom of the pile because not enough people play them but Im in hopes that if enough people request it, it may just happen.

Please fix the shifter class. Its horrible and almost unplayable. I mean yeah its a cool feature for RP but beyond that its terrible. It takes me 10 mins to kill 1 rabid wolverine at level 8. The only saving grace is using improved expertise and have a dedicated dps, but you offer no value to a group and the flavor soon runs out when theyre always saving your butt.

The forms are very very lacking, and I know thats a heap of work to redo. Maybe give them some druid caster levels for every 2 shifter or something? Im not really sure if there is any easy answer without reworking the whole class forms but they need something desperately.

Pleeeeeaaasse :)

Chwi

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Nitro » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:59 am

Right now, the only way to level as a shifter is to find a group of friends, and stay in gargoyle shape with -guard on one of them until you get humanoid shape. Then you can sometimes use lizardfolk whipmaster to actually do some damage, but will have to swap back to gargoyle as soon as things get rough.

When you hit epic level, things get considerably easier, Risen lord has the tankiness of the gargoyle, and a half-decent damage output, so this will probably be the only form you ever use outside of Rakshasa for dealing with spellcasters until you get dragonshape.

User avatar
Ambigue
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:02 am
Location: Elsewhere.

Re: Shifter

Post by Ambigue » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:16 pm

They don't need a complete rework, but could definitely use a boost to overall survivability.

The simplest solution, I think, would be to grant the character themselves an across-the-board boost that would apply to all shapes since shifters don't have many gear options that they can really take advantage of (other than the new second skin armors). A boost to AC and maybe some low-key regen would do wonders. Maybe grant them a temp boost to their physical stats that their shifted forms would inherit to keep them in-line with non-optimized characters of the same level.


I love the RP potential, but I recognize that it comes at the cost of being kind of a burden on the rest of the party for a while. I'd like for the shifter to be able to contribute. It doesn't have to be the best at anything, but being able to be average at lots of things would be a big boost and very much in-line with what the class was intended to be.

User avatar
Beernerd81
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.

Re: Shifter

Post by Beernerd81 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:50 pm

Shifter is indeed a slow progression class, but I think that may be kind of the point. That being said, they do seem very underpowered at low and mid levels. I will say that monk levels have helped a lot and I've even found a way to incorporate the monk training into my RP. I still find myself underpowered. Anyone not wanting to take monk levels or restrict their RP to a LN alignment is going to have a very tough progression. My thought was if they are going to remain underpowered, perhaps give them some more RP tools. I am not a developer so I do not know if this is feasible, but I think it makes sense for Shifters to gain the ability to take base race shapes with standard adjustments to increase intrigue RP opportunity. If I can turn from a human into a kobold commando with kickass abilities and a nifty weapon, why not a mundane Elf Commoner? I think that would be very cool and open a lot of RP opportunity.
Hunter548 wrote:Variety is often overrated. Sucking at 15 things is not better than being good at 3.
Wytchee wrote:Please roleplay all classes listed on your character sheet.

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Shifter

Post by Orian_666 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:32 am

In my opinion I think it's the requirements that make it such a pain to play as.

As far as I know Shifter is a class that was made specifically for NWN and holds no real basis in FR lore. That being said the requirements for the class on Arelith could surely be made different without being too impactful to any lore that doesn't actually exist.

After some searching I found some homebrew and official stuff that may explain who/what a shifter is and most of it suggests that it's an ability most likely gained at birth or possibly from a ritual or magic. Taking that into consideration I would suggest we scrap the current requirements and make new ones.

Keep in mind my suggestion is on the pretense that a Shifter is almost considered a pseudo-race rather than a class, and as such the requirements will reflect the skillset or personality of someone that has had the ability for most of their life.

Current Req:
Feats: alertness, wild shape
Spellcasting: level 3 or higher
PRC Token: A PRC Token to play the class is required on Arelith.

Suggested Req:
BAB: 4 (This is to keep it from being taken right away at level 4 like most prestige classes can't be, coupled with the bluff requirement some amount of multiclassing and/or at least level 5 will be needed. This keeps it in line with when you can currently take it, 5 levels of Druid is enough to gain the requirements to take Shifter levels at the moment.)
Base bluff: 6 (This helps keep options open for a variety of builds while at the same time placing a logical requirement to take the class. The logic for it is simply because a person with the ability to take other forms would have learned to bluff [Disguise] with at least some skill over their current life.)
PRC Token: No change, the token itself and the reason for it make plenty of sense.

My reasoning for why I feel this is a much better requirement layout is simple. The class doesn't exist in lore, or at least not completely canonically, as such it's safe to simply do with it as we please for the server and I really like the idea of a Shifter being an actual thing that was born (or "made") rather than a class that someone trained to get. There's plenty of lore friendly ways it could be explained and it should open up some RP avenues for both the DMs and players.

Mechanically these changes would be a huge bonus to Shifter players, not having to take 5 druid levels would open up a whole myriad of potential class combinations, it'd give access to UMD, fighter levels, monk levels, and many many many more, all without having to decide on just 1 of the potential options. This won't make shifters insanely strong, not by a long shot, but I think it'd definitely give them a fighting chance.

I believe that the initial stat distribution/class that most players would go for for what'd be considered an "optimal" build with these changes would make getting to level 5, yes even level 5, a pain in the Snuggybear, but that's not a bad thing, it just creates an extra tier to having the person "earn" the class :lol:

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:01 am

Orian_666 wrote:In my opinion I think it's the requirements that make it such a pain to play as.

As far as I know Shifter is a class that was made specifically for NWN and holds no real basis in FR lore. That being said the requirements for the class on Arelith could surely be made different without being too impactful to any lore that doesn't actually exist.
It's actually based on this class.

It was later revised to this.

The two most noteworthy features of both of these classes according to lore is that neither one requires a wisdom 30 nor do they require epic feats to take larger dragon shapes, and the original shifter class did not require epic feats for outsider shape, construct shape, or undead shape.

The original shifter was also viable for anyone magical shapechanging ability (like a polymorph or shapechange spell) as long as they had alertness and endurance.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Orian_666
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:29 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Shifter

Post by Orian_666 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:44 am

Ah, my bad.
Well either way my suggestion remains the same. I think changing the current requirements will make things a whole load better for shifters, opening up better and more optimal class combinations :D

Nemain
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:40 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Nemain » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:10 am

I'd say the problem with the class isn't in the requirements, but in the complete uselessness of most shapes. Shifter gets -a lot- of shapes, all of them with plenty of RP flavor, yet....

The advice in this very same thread sums up the problem: gargoyle, lizardfolk for sometimes and then Risen Lord, Rakshasa and Dragon: those are the only shapes that actually bring enough to the table to use.

Turning uses/day shape abilities into unlimited uses, adjusting the different shapes' numbers and giving each a bit more of a function (different from eachother) in party mechanics would be the ideal way to make the Shifter shine on its own. Of course, with a class that's supposed to be a jack of all trades, the limit should still be that each shape shouldn't be as good at its job as a dedicated build from another class. Just... Good enough, rather than terrible.

User avatar
Lorkas
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Lorkas » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:11 am

Give them the rakshasa-style -polymorph when they attain humanoid shape.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:23 am

The kobold commando form is also useful for hide in plain sight, which guarantees a LoS break against PvE casters unless they start pre-buffed with or have permanent true seeing- clever travel arrangements will allow you to force the enemy mages to waste their first actions until they see the rest of your party.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

cornelius_4
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by cornelius_4 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:49 am

I wouldn't say it's as bad as the opening post makes it look like, but it could certainly be improved a bit. You get to assemble some pretty cool weapons: Image

The ac can get pretty good. As a kobold, I can reach 69 ac against one opponent, which includes haste, size mod and dodge, but is without any use of expertise. The attack bonus isn't that bad either at 38 (39 with aid potion, includes size mod). The lizard can reach 68 discipline, if you are worried about enemies trying to knock you down and also comes with permanent 15/+5 damage reduction.

There are some notable downsides of course, such as not being able to use scrolls/items while polymorphed, no umd and for weapon using forms I have 3 attacks (4 hasted).

But I think that's managable. While I wouldn't mind a boost in combat performance, I think what is most missing is creature abilites more fully fleshed out. The mindflayer has a disturbing lack of brain eating capability, it would be cool if that one could have abilites similar to that of brain beetles and would offer some boost by devouring brains (would need some way to drain intellence or perhaps come into play on a prone/stunned target), perhaps you'd get better at combat for a while the more intelligent the victim was.

Other abilites seem to depend on caster level (7 in my case) and could use a longer duration. The worst one here is the turn-to-stone ones, a combination of subpar forms, 7 round duration and low dc means I never really use them.

I like 2 of the undead forms, the lich as described by others but the vampire deserves mention too. It seems to have +5 creature weapons (don't know if it is a bug, please let me keep it! :) ) and the domination gaze is actually useful. For example, I use it to dominate demons in pandemoneum and let them duke it out amongst themselves. The shade has a level drain touch attack which I really wish had higher dc and more levels drained as I kind of like that stuff (even if it is slower than normal, I like thinking stuff like "oh NO... such a SHAME" when the target fails to save and slowly things just get worse and worse for them *snickers*.

The golems are generally not powerful enough... the iron golem can work sometimes (dc 17 on the poison gas is too low though), but I tend to only use it against monsters that wouldn't really have a chance anyway and the other two arent really good enough to see use.

I think I like all the outsider shapes, especially the slaad, it's often my go to, when I need to be tanky as it combines good ac with good health and generally dependable 10/+5 dr and 10 dr against many elements with regen, even if it isn't that good offensively (I'll have 5 attacks starting at +30). The chaos spittle could also use some more damage, but I do get to use it sometimes against high ac foes, but only because I'm stubborn (that ability let me take down a certain epic ooze behind a rift, first time!). The azer's special abilites could use some more "oopmh!" though.

Another creature that deserves mention is the manticore, a 5*5*d4 ranged touch attack can be neat against enemies with little to no damage reduction wich can be found even in some higher level dungeons, lets you kite them and can crit against anything (even undead), but the ability should be targetable as it also currently also targets allies and spreads the damage out too much when there are multiple targets.

So yeah.. I think my overall point is that what I find most in need of improvement is the abilites of some forms. A scionic mage-ish mindflayer (with brain eating mechanics!), maybe a snake summoning medusa and some tweaks here and there (dominate person casting harpy!... or add a bit of bardsong to the effect) would be amazing. What Lorkas mentions would also be delicious, so perhaps you can roleplay taking on the appearance of other species. I'm also thinking the shifter levels might add a bit to caster levels also, so you are a tad less vulnerable to dispels and let the rakshasa spells pack a little more punch.

User avatar
Abyssal Wrath
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Abyssal Wrath » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:21 am

The problem is, not every shifter is multiclassed as monk.Not every shifter has the monk ac to work with, or the attacks per round. Just my 2 cents.

hoshi
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:45 am

Re: Shifter

Post by hoshi » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:44 am

It'd be nice if Shifters gained some sort of Wis to AC that was capped at a "reasonable" level when shifted and something like Spellsword APR that superseded other forms of APR like monk. That way you're not having to deal with balancing one character that has 45 AC and 3 APR with another that has 70 AC and 5 APR.

User avatar
PresidentCthulhu
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:49 pm
Location: GMT+1

Re: Shifter

Post by PresidentCthulhu » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:09 am

I have leveled a shifter recently (during the summer) until about lvl 23.

My experiences:
Gameplay-wise until level 21 I felt utterly useless, but I had fun in RP and with friends it was manageable. As others said sadly most forms are simply useless. After lvl 21 the game becomes much easier (I ditched the undead shape,but deathslaad and rakshasa made my life 200% easier than before). The melding mechanic is horrendous. You must build in monk, there is no way around it. All in all the class fits to the tank/defender position mostly (no solo, good with a squishy glass cannon friend). Until higher level when you get dragon form ofc, but that has to be reached and the journey is looong.

RP-wise I agree it is fun and I have made the same suggestion regarding the old rakshasa style polymorph. I planned to use the drow form to have some alternate personality (once I learn the language), but its standard mustache drow variant kills every immersion instantly. Also the bluff suggestion is nice, I mostly invested in persuasion as that is literally the only option (the shifter is class locked currently to druid/shifter/monk), but it is hardly optimal.
Your friendly neighborhood eldritch horror

cornelius_4
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by cornelius_4 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:51 pm

I think that is definetely an important point Abyssal Wrath. When I looked at possible builds, I felt as if monk was the only realistic option. I would still rank reworked special abilities higher though as that is what makes the class distinct from a regular fighter (aside from the visual appearance of course) - you sacrifice some pretty important things, but you get some alternate utility/defensive/offensive abilities in return and that is a fair part of the fun to be had.

On my list I'd order it like this:
1 - improved (higher duration and/or damage and/or dc) or entirely reworked abilites for some forms (my list would be mindflayer, medusa, harpy, basilisk, azer, rakshasa, shade, manticore, all golems)
2 - some way to make non-monk builds viable
3 - the ability to take on the appearance of more creatures, for example via rakshasa style polymorph

User avatar
Ambigue
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:02 am
Location: Elsewhere.

Re: Shifter

Post by Ambigue » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:58 pm

In the base game, the limitations of the Shifter's gear melding mechanic were manageable because you could get pieces of gear that offered a reasonable boost to a single stat.

On Arelith, though, the focus is more on stacking lots of little enchantments and that just kind of bones the Shifter.

Further, being shifted shuts you out of using kits, wands, and other common boosting items. The only way to make use of them is to shapechange back to your regular form. That's not the end of the world, but it can seriously detract from a shifter that's trying to pass as a whatever form he's taken.

The inability to boost stats to the same level as a standard character class is super-important because whatever form you take will assume at least one of your physical stats. This is exacerbated considerably if you want to get the more interesting epic-level shapes as they require a heavy investment in Wisdom.

Basically, every single form available to you can have a pretty major weak point that you cannot shore up with gear. That leaves non-gear options to improve viability and monk levels are the strongest of these, making them feel mandatory.

User avatar
Xylou
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:36 pm
Location: France

Re: Shifter

Post by Xylou » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:21 pm

Ambigue wrote:In the base game, the limitations of the Shifter's gear melding mechanic were manageable because you could get pieces of gear that offered a reasonable boost to a single stat.

On Arelith, though, the focus is more on stacking lots of little enchantments and that just kind of bones the Shifter.
That's true ; in the NwN campaign, you must equip items with "huge" boost to single stat instead of several small boost on many stats.

If I remember well, the "merge" of the different item properties is done by a single script. Altering it so 2 bonus "Strength + 1" would give "Strength + 2" is technically possible, but very tedious (because it isn't simple as 1+1=2). But let's forget the technical aspect, as Arelith devs are the most talented ones and they surely have already thought about it.
The most important point is what would happen to the balance with such a modification ?

Maybe a kind of "improved merge" could be offered only to non-monk build shifters, for balance reasons ?

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Cortex » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Xylou wrote:
Ambigue wrote:In the base game, the limitations of the Shifter's gear melding mechanic were manageable because you could get pieces of gear that offered a reasonable boost to a single stat.

On Arelith, though, the focus is more on stacking lots of little enchantments and that just kind of bones the Shifter.
That's true ; in the NwN campaign, you must equip items with "huge" boost to single stat instead of several small boost on many stats.

If I remember well, the "merge" of the different item properties is done by a single script. Altering it so 2 bonus "Strength + 1" would give "Strength + 2" is technically possible, but very tedious (because it isn't simple as 1+1=2). But let's forget the technical aspect, as Arelith devs are the most talented ones and they surely have already thought about it.
The most important point is what would happen to the balance with such a modification ?

Maybe a kind of "improved merge" could be offered only to non-monk build shifters, for balance reasons ?
Anything added to improve non monk shifters will also boost monk ones. That said, there's already two items called Lesser Second Skin and Second Skin for this very purpose.
:)

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Shifter

Post by flower » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:25 pm

Would be possible to give shifter ability to shapechanged into any humanoid race? With ability to use items (wands, scrolls).

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Peppermint » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:47 am

Shifters are pretty garbage, yeah. We were well aware of that when we enabled them, but we wanted the option to be there for roleplay.

The reason the class hasn't been overhauled (yet?) is simply that it'd be a ton of work. Virtually every reshape would need a total rework, if not some of the core features of the class itself.

User avatar
Jagel
Posts: 1250
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:50 pm
Location: Scandinavia

Re: Shifter

Post by Jagel » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:52 am

I'd still say it'd be possible to do a quick(ish) fix to make them tolerable. I understand of course that making a half-arsed fix for silly class that only a handful of players dabble in is not high on the list.

Problems:
- bad and weird stat spreads on most shapes.
- bad progression for most shapes
- bad dcs and effect scaling for most abilities
- some really weird abilities that can seem either completely OP or completely useles depending on the context
- bad potential for multiclassing while putting majority of levels into shifter is also bad due to lack of feats, limited skill-set, no spells, no real synergy with the five required druid levels.

I'll put in some ideas for potential fixes that might not take too much time. Pick and choose:
- Count shifter levels as (half) caster lvls for divine classes = slightly more useful buffs from druid lvls
- Count shifter lvls towards animal companion lvl
- When shifting into armed shapes gain x % damage immunity, +x to discipline and shifter lvls count as full bab class for purpose of culculating number of attacks
- When shifting into unarmed shapes, gain any or all of the following: monk ac/speed/unarmed attack progression
- Count shifter lvls towards druid shapeshift abilities (wild shape, elemental shape)
- Give shifters a totem shape
- Give epic shifters (15+ lvls?) access to elemental monolith shapes
- Let shifters use fire and ice berries on themselves while shapeshifted

User avatar
Beernerd81
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:03 pm
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.

Re: Shifter

Post by Beernerd81 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:32 pm

Jagel wrote: - Count shifter levels as (half) caster lvls for divine classes = slightly more useful buffs from druid lvls
- Count shifter lvls towards animal companion lvl
- When shifting into armed shapes gain x % damage immunity, +x to discipline and shifter lvls count as full bab class for purpose of culculating number of attacks
- When shifting into unarmed shapes, gain any or all of the following: monk ac/speed/unarmed attack progression
- Count shifter lvls towards druid shapeshift abilities (wild shape, elemental shape)
- Give shifters a totem shape
- Give epic shifters (15+ lvls?) access to elemental monolith shapes
- Let shifters use fire and ice berries on themselves while shapeshifted
I'm going to chime in a bit here on these with unnecessary opinions. *throws down 2 coppers* :

- Caster levels idea would be helpful, even if only for buffs
- Animal companion level would be huge. It also makes sense, considering shifters continue to have Animal Empathy as a class skill.
- I know fairly little about the core mechanics of the engine, however adjusting number of attacks sounds complicated.
- If you want monk/unarmed bonuses, why not take monk levels?
- I have mixed feelings on the druid wildshape thing. On one hand, the shifter is exploring forms beyond simple animal forms so it makes sense they focus on those. On the other hand, shifters' lesser shapes gain more uses per day and eventually become unlimited, so why not animal shapes too?
- I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a shifter totem shape. If you mean a single shape for which the shifter eschews all others, that seems contradictory to the entire idea of being a shifter in the first place.
- Elemental monoliths sound badass!
- Ooh! Fire and Ice berries sound fun!
Hunter548 wrote:Variety is often overrated. Sucking at 15 things is not better than being good at 3.
Wytchee wrote:Please roleplay all classes listed on your character sheet.

Kirito
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Kirito » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:27 pm

FYI, changing the number of attacks is easy (though there are maximums)

User avatar
Ambigue
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:02 am
Location: Elsewhere.

Re: Shifter

Post by Ambigue » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:43 pm

Beernerd81 wrote:- If you want monk/unarmed bonuses, why not take monk levels?
That is a good point. But given how weak the class is overall, monk is basically the default 'right answer' to the problems posed by playing a shifter . That's not good mechanically and it's not good for RP. You are expected to play your class levels and having just about every shifter and druid also be former asceticists gets dumb.

I've mentioned before that giving shifters access to the monk's wis-to-ac feat if possible would be one way to improve things a bit for non-monk shifters. It would taking monk levels feel less mandatory and is a way to improve non-monk shifters in a way that doesn't also benefit monk-shifters.

Sab1
Posts: 1269
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:44 pm

Re: Shifter

Post by Sab1 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:48 pm

Can a totem become a shifter? They seem the direct opposite of each other. One has no form to call their own the other is so comfortable with one animal that's all they do.

Post Reply