Please - XP progression from other than hacking up things

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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:45 pm

The verb risk means to run a danger, in hopes of a reward.

If you are rewarded equally regardless of whether you take the risk or not, what's the point of taking it?
We're pointlessly discussing semantics here when the real issue is with players who are stubbornly clinging to NWN when in fact they want to play Minecraft or Sims.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:12 pm

I am not saying that they should have the same reward as someone taking risk. I am saying that those who rp, more or less deserve a boon.

And I am sorry to say but remarks like that do not add anything to a productive discussion.

How people want to play nwn is up to them and on Arelith there are plenty who value rping most of there time instead of running dungeons al day those are the people who don't have the time for both.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:19 pm

I liked the idea where half of exp from killed mobs turned into adventure exp. So folks who grind non-stop over two weeks are left waiting for the other half of their 15 levels to tick over the series of a couple months.

Will make leveling twice as long for power grinders. While being pretty much the same for casual players who spend the majority of their time RPing.

Also it hits the Lasso problem slightly, so you don't just get 10k adventure exp and go off to grind for optimal exp/hour.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:22 pm

I do not want to play a merchant or solely a crafter, but I do not want to be mechanically neutered for RP instead of grinding. Yes, I could grind to 30 and then RP...but that is lame at the highest order of lameness. Like lame to the point that my hope is DMs see that and delete characters lame. The slow climb from low levels to high levels is often where a character's story really comes into being.

That is what I meant in my post on ways to get more xp, ideally in adventure xp format and not from direct killing, which is in line with Iceborn's long post from before, but I could not find it in the forums.

Killing xp should be the primary source of XP on Arelith, but more availability of XP from other sources would be ideal...especially in epic levels.

Strict NPC character types which many are talking about who are dedicated clerks/merchants/crafters/what have you...well, that is something I personally would not really like to see on Arelith, to be honest. I think the current character format is fine for all things, though having the previously mentioned different paths to nerf combat ability in favor of crafts or the like might not be too bad of an idea. It is not as if these characters will be prevalent nor farmable to easily roll 5%.

Still...more sources of XP which can go into the adventure xp pool is something I wholeheartedly support!

EDIT: Also yes to the adventuring mode mentioned too!

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Aero Silver
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Aero Silver » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:30 pm

Suggestion: allow new paths at level 1, so players can take NPC classes at level 1: Commoner, Aristocrat, and Expert.

Commoner is your average Joe and Jane. Farmer, rothe herder, merchant, etc.
Aristocrat is playing a pompous character, like a cat lady or a debutante. Fits well with Gift of Wealth.
Expert is the smith who spends a lifetime perfecting a skill. A blacksmith, a tanner, a carpenter, or a chef. They get the Gift of Craftsmanship for free.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:09 pm

Firstly, thank you to everyone for keeping this constructive and polite. It is appreciated.

Something to add to your thoughts: There is space in between the cheese maker and the wandering adventurer. Firstly, in fantasy tropes how many times does the hero begin as a stablehand? Or spends some time refusing the call to action and working as a craftsman? Or retires from the adventuring life to become a bartender and tell tales? (I forgot the bartending system - do you earn EXP from that?)

I think to illustrate the point I'm going to shelf my crafter until everyone forgets this: Current build is 5 wizard/5 cleric/2 Harper Scout. Yes, they don't kill things. Yes, they spend 95% of their time making goods and selling them to other PC's BUT this is so they get you talking, learn your language, and eventually, learn your secrets. They are not a full on NPC. There are other things happening.

Also after reading the conversation so far I'm thinking that sources of EXP should be distinct from RPR. The issue with RPR is that not all players can get access to it with timezone differences how busy the DM's are, etc. Sources of EXP should be open to all players - and yes power levelers are going to power level, but that's going to happen anyway. If everyone has equal options and access to the different paths to level, then it's fair.

Well... mostly...
DM GrumpyCat wrote: Counter Argument: But arelith is also an Adventure server. Why should Joe, who has killed 100 dragons, slain a 1000 goblins and laid waste to the Manor of Morn, traversed the underdark and traveled the very Planes of Existance themselves, be of a lower level than Tom, who spends all his day roleplaying selling Cheese in Cordor market. Is it not fair that those who take greater risks and do more adventurous things, be more powerful than those who don't? In short - why to the 'NPC' type characters need to level at all?
This absolutely needs to be taken into account.

If we had difference sources of EXP, would it be possible to track where the EXP came from and give appropriate bonuses for that when certain thresholds are obtained?

Combat EXP - From killing stuff and selling creatures -Bonus to AB/AC/HP/other combat related stuff

Crafting EXP
- From crafting, and using item creation feats - Additional crafting points, small increase in EXP from crafting , reduced crafting DC's

Social EXP - From talking/disguising/posting on messageboards/reading message boards - Bonus social skill points so better bluff(disguise), Appraise, etc. Higher bonuses could be that when you are voting in an Election, your vote counts for more than one to represent the amount of influence you have. (Last one is an off the cuff idea)

EDIT: I just realized that it may be possible for these bonuses to keep being paid out after level 30 which is a remarkably interesting idea.

EDIT EDIT: I wonder if it would also be possible to script this so that even though all of the sources of EXP are available to all players, but you get better rewards or you reach the threshold for a bonus quicker by focusing on one? This would discourage trying to use them all to power level.

Say the first threshold is 5,000 EXP in a category. You hit that in one category, get the appropriate bonus, and then all of your categories reset with 10,000 being the next threshold. You hit that, get the appropriate bonus, and then all categories reset again. So if you want the Combat Bonus, you are best focusing your effort on killing stuff.

We've got Adventure EXP on top of this already. Crafting and Social EXP could be paid out in Adventure EXP, or a hybrid model with a little bit of both.

How does that, or some variation of it sound? Can we have Joe the planeswalking dragonslayer be a combat god, Tom the artisan cheesemonger make the best lovely cheese on the island (while learning your secrets for the Harpers or the Zhents), and everyone be happy?
Last edited by Thera on Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Diegovog » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:17 pm

After reading the whole thread, here is some of the ideas I liked the most:

Increase the ways to gather exploration xp.

Having NPC-class in haks in which level doesn't translate into combat at all.

And this RPR:
- Faction Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Craft/Trade Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Settlement/Politics Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Social Activity (0 to 10 points)
I personally HATE crafting, it's something I've hated my whole life and I would give way more importance to faction activity. As a faction gives SO much more flavor and enjoyment to a whole group.

I'm all in for daily activities as well. 1k xp per day per character seems an awesome way to promote the server, increasing the number of players online, possibly bringing even more people into game as they see the numbers.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:23 pm

Diegovog wrote: I personally HATE crafting, it's something I've hated my whole life...
I'll do your crafting for you! That's what this is all about!
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:48 pm

Dunshine wrote:I've been toying with an idea for a while that would be rewarding for none-combat, none-adventure role-play. In a nutshell, the RPR would be expanded with other factors, making it more dynamic, and it would be build up from activity in 4 main categories (in addition to the current RPR).

- Faction Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Craft/Trade Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Settlement/Politics Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Social Activity (0 to 10 points)

Those 4 meters would be updated once a week, and not immediately, to keep the exact formula of obtaining points hidden, and to try and prevent abuse of the mechanics behind it.

Note, this is a personal idea, not an admin stance or anything. Just posting it here as food for thought and receive feedback.
Tangential post, so apologies- out of this, I'd like to see the settlement/politics activity and faction activity dropped, and the other two doubled in value.

Faction and settlement involvement can be awesome, but they can also be taxing, and sometimes you don't want a character involved in them for the sake of taking a break. I know multiple people who shelved characters shortly after their political/faction terms this past year- I'd easily be willing to bet money that half of those players' next characters had nothing to do with factions or politics by design.

The idea of having a reward for such things is nice, but I see it leading to people who are burnt out or on the way to it clinging by their nails to not lose a cookie, and at that point it might do more harm than good.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by I hope you got money » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:39 pm

Griefmaker wrote: Yes, I could grind to 30 and then RP...but that is lame at the highest order of lameness. Like lame to the point that my hope is DMs see that and delete characters lame. The slow climb from low levels to high levels is often where a character's story really comes into being.
I think that worrying about how others play is more taxing on your fun then them actually getting to level 30 really fast. The game is meant to be fun, do it your way.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Dunshine wrote:I've been toying with an idea for a while that would be rewarding for none-combat, none-adventure role-play. In a nutshell, the RPR would be expanded with other factors, making it more dynamic, and it would be build up from activity in 4 main categories (in addition to the current RPR).

- Faction Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Craft/Trade Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Settlement/Politics Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Social Activity (0 to 10 points)

Those 4 meters would be updated once a week, and not immediately, to keep the exact formula of obtaining points hidden, and to try and prevent abuse of the mechanics behind it.

Note, this is a personal idea, not an admin stance or anything. Just posting it here as food for thought and receive feedback.
Tangential post, so apologies- out of this, I'd like to see the settlement/politics activity and faction activity dropped, and the other two doubled in value.

Faction and settlement involvement can be awesome, but they can also be taxing, and sometimes you don't want a character involved in them for the sake of taking a break. I know multiple people who shelved characters shortly after their political/faction terms this past year- I'd easily be willing to bet money that half of those players' next characters had nothing to do with factions or politics by design.

The idea of having a reward for such things is nice, but I see it leading to people who are burnt out or on the way to it clinging by their nails to not lose a cookie, and at that point it might do more harm than good.
I like how you said you should cut the settlement part of the suggestion, then went on to make the case why it needs it more then the others by far :).

As far as people getting burnt out in positions of power, I think its primarily because they try to do too much. Playing a settlement head should consist of essentially two things: Setting the agenda for the settlement (aka coming up with a path for the rest of the players under you to have fun following), and constantly recruiting for positions to delegate the day to day stuff and making sure that they are working together with the other recruits (even if, and perhaps hopefully if, they hate each other). Anything more trivial then that, that's what said underlings for.

Your point about not wanting to loose a cookie despite being well beyond burn out has always been a thing on nwn pws for as long as I have played them (just hit fourteen years!) and likely always will be until the last nwn server closes for good (my guess is 2165, when the cyborgs start to take over). I personally think that if you are not available at least for a couple of hours every two days , you probably don't play enough to cover the role and should open it up for someone more obse....active, but that's not what the rules involving it are so it is what it is.
Last edited by I hope you got money on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marsi
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Marsi » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:40 pm

I'm seeing a lot of convoluted solutions to what should be very simple conceptually -- removing crafting progression from its ties to combat level.

You do carpenter stuff to get better at carpentry and so on.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by gilescorey » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:48 pm

The problem with separating crafting and levelling progression to my eyes is that now people who want to be good at both things have to grind both experience points and metaphorical "crafting levels," or whatever form their progression might take.

I wonder how many folks in the "I don't want to have to fight monsters to level up my guy!" line of thought will say, "but that's okay, people shouldn't be good at crafting if they don't craft."

Somebody could just as easily say "but that's okay, people shouldn't be good at fighting if they don't fight," no?

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Diegovog » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:09 pm

I'm pretty sure the solution to help people who don't have time or dislike grinding isn't to make crafting grindy and progressive xD

IMO for now I like the idea to make a class through Hak that allows a player to be a NPC class that can craft really well but it's levels won't translate into combat/magic/power.
And whoever wishes to play that could apply to the DMs and then download the required Hak. This player would get tons more xp, wouldn't be able to roll for reward and even at level 30 would be weaker than your average level 10.

I love the idea of having a flexible RPR depending on what you do. However, it would take a LOT of effort to make it happen and as we can see people have pretty different ideas on what is important and what's not!

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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:35 pm

The moment you make crafting advancement not progressive and time consuming island wide economy will suffer.

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Cortex
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:41 pm

It could be both.

You get +2 points every 2000 craft points used or so, up to 60. But you still get +2 every level up, and it still caps at 60.
:)

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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:49 pm

On the other hand, even if this gets implemented I can see people still complaining about how they have to fight monsters over the resources necessary for their crafting projects.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:25 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:So folks who grind non-stop over two weeks are left waiting for the other half of their 15 levels to tick over the series of a couple months.
Sounds maliciously motivated (i don't like how this person plays so lets Snuggle a Bugbear them).

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:34 am

-XXX- wrote:On the other hand, even if this gets implemented I can see people still complaining about how they have to fight monsters over the resources necessary for their crafting projects.
I prefer to pay/commission other characters to do it for me. It's called creating RP opportunities for others.
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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:57 am

Are you really trying to sell bothersome micromanagement of resources as the pinnacle of stellar RP here? :roll:

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by liver and bones » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:36 am

Cortex wrote:It could be both.

You get +2 points every 2000 craft points used or so, up to 60. But you still get +2 every level up, and it still caps at 60.
That sounds super interesting. As much as I like not having to grind both, I never understood why spending time crafting didn't offer you some sort of experience towards being able to craft better things.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Astral » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:06 am

okay, I've seen this somewhere many many many years ago on a roleplay server. instead of RPR and other means to measure one's participation in other's story and what not. they had these DM-given token who significantly rise your exp gaining from 'kills' by a %. These tokens disappear from the inventory when the character lvls up so you don't get to stack them indefinitely.

The idea is that after a small event or a RP that a DM witnessed, they will be able to hand off a token so naturally people who invest their time in heavy RPing will stack tokens and the next time they leave town they don't need to grind because they get shi-tones of exp until next lvl up (depending on the amount of tokens they earned since their preveious lvl up). They still need to fight and train to get better in combat but their training can be shorter for the sake of RP, and grinders will still lvl up faster so that's not gonna matter to them. Any thoughts?
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:21 am

I don't wanna be that person...but some players get a LOT more events then others...some never see events...this WOULD be looked at without a doubt as favoritism **NOT THAT I AM AT ALL IMPLYING FAVORITISM FROM THE DM'S BECAUSE I KNOW ITS NOT!!!!!**

Its the same argument that stands that the RPR system is selected via DM favoritism, the only way you get noticed is by a DM focusing on you. ** again read upper stars**

So I see this kinda thing having a heavy backlash on already overworked DM's.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Astral » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:26 am

DarkDreamer wrote:I don't wanna be that person...but some players get a LOT more events then others...some never see events...this WOULD be looked at without a doubt as favoritism **NOT THAT I AM AT ALL IMPLYING FAVORITISM FROM THE DM'S BECAUSE I KNOW ITS NOT!!!!!**

Its the same argument that stands that the RPR system is selected via DM favoritism, the only way you get noticed is by a DM focusing on you. ** again read upper stars**

So I see this kinda thing having a heavy backlash on already overworked DM's.
But if we all agree that DM favoritism doesn't exist then where's the problem?
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:30 am

Astral wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote:I don't wanna be that person...but some players get a LOT more events then others...some never see events...this WOULD be looked at without a doubt as favoritism **NOT THAT I AM AT ALL IMPLYING FAVORITISM FROM THE DM'S BECAUSE I KNOW ITS NOT!!!!!**

Its the same argument that stands that the RPR system is selected via DM favoritism, the only way you get noticed is by a DM focusing on you. ** again read upper stars**

So I see this kinda thing having a heavy backlash on already overworked DM's.
But if we all agree that DM favoritism doesn't exist then where's the problem?
Sadly...not everyone agrees :cry:

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Prestige » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:37 am

DarkDreamer wrote:
Lorkas wrote:500 per tick is 5000 an hour, which is a lot. 87 hours of playtime to level 30 without needing to do a single thing in game.
87 hours is a LOT of time compared to some players who hit 30 in under a week from mass grinding, though the Devs could choose to reduce the amount.
It took me about 84 hours of silentgrind to hit high epics with an optimal 3-man group of full ECL characters (permahasted greatsword wm, extremely optimized pdk tank, and a wizard), without any gear beyond 2stat/mithril for the tank, int/con for the mage, and str/con for the WM. It was very boring, and I cannot say I recommend.

I still do not understand the arguments against across-the-board XP increasing. If you doubled the RPR experience, doubled all the XP from monsters, and made adventuring XP a lot easier to procure, Arelith would feel a lot more enjoyable for a lot more people. Sure it means that us players with weaponized sad brains can grind to epics that much faster, but for the general QoL increase across the board I feel like it's a small price to pay.

Alternatively, you could work on some non-level based ways of character progression, but I'm not really sure what they'd be.

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