Please - XP progression from other than hacking up things

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Woper_The_Black
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Woper_The_Black » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:54 am

Take crafting away from character level. If a character wants to spend their career life crafting then fine. If they craft 1000 kits of base level, let them craft the next tier for the same points and so forth. Reward the character for their dedication to their craft, not for bashing monsters and reaching a higher level. It makes sense that the more time you spend in your craft the better you should be (as a general rule). Also stops players from just rolling a dummy toon to craft with as the time is still required to advance to higher skills in the craft.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:02 am

Dunshine wrote:What is the main issue for crafter types not gaining levels (as quick as adventurer types)? I think it's the crafting skill points right? Everything else is not relevant for none-adventuring types? If the crafting skill points could be increased for those type of characters in other ways, would you still care about the levelling aspect?
Thera specifically brought up the XP cost for wand/potion/scroll makers, which is a fair point. A character cannot be a dedicated crafter of arcane goods without periodically going out grinding in order to top off their available pool of XP.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Tyrantos » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:06 am

Baron Saturday wrote: Thera specifically brought up the XP cost for wand/potion/scroll makers, which is a fair point. A character cannot be a dedicated crafter of arcane goods without periodically going out grinding in order to top off their available pool of XP.
To be fair, those whom would focus upon crafting wands and potions would usually be active "Wizarding" charathers so to speak. I've a hard time seeing a second circle magician spend all their times brewing potions or making wands.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:12 am

-XXX- wrote:You are literally asking for the devs to implement changes that would cater to your personal specific playstyle. I'm not criticizing you for trying to be the special snowflake, but I have allowed myself the audacity to question the notion that you should be rewarded for it.
Awh come on. That's just low.

The server has a lot more diversity than you give it credit for. Although I will admit that as stated in the OP, that Arelith is beginning to trend more towards the MMORPG style of play. Which is sad actually. I'll admit that the style of RP that I enjoy feels like it's becoming less and less common. There used to be a time where 5% rolls were used for doing things like playing a wolf - not a lythari, not a shape changer of any type - just a common wolf.

It does feel like between the mechanically advantageous Dragons 5% and the fallout from the anti-grinding script a little something has been lost.

Anyway, as per the OP, let's keep this away from an anti-grind/anti-rpr thread and stop with the personal attacks please?
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Iceborn
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Iceborn » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am

I've said it five million times before:

Adventure XP is awesome, but it NEEDS more sources and more refreshable sources.
And I've suggested those sources. Really. Sent two massive threads to the long walk into the suggestion box.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:26 am

Dunshine wrote:What is the main issue for crafter types not gaining levels (as quick as adventurer types)? I think it's the crafting skill points right? Everything else is not relevant for none-adventuring types? If the crafting skill points could be increased for those type of characters in other ways, would you still care about the levelling aspect?
Scribe Scroll / Brew Potion / Craft Wand also factor in as mentioned already in the thread - but I do believe integrating them into the crafting system with something like spell components is a better solution than the current costs of xp and gold and engages that massive market with the player economy.

Even then, having more options to level and earn EXP would still make for a more fulfilling gaming experience. Especially when there are the epic spell focus cookies. It still seems a little odd that the only way to become an epic diviner is by killing things.

A question has popped into my head though. From the other side of the coin, what's the detraction here? By making EXP (and let's say specifically Adventure EXP) available through non-combat means, how is it going to impact other people's enjoyment of the game?

Forgive me if some of these seem a little blunt - you can assume it's a reflection of my perspective here. If I'm wrong, please disabuse me of these notions:

Is your worry that someone is going to use the systems to level up quickly and be a PVP hound?

Is it that you invested grueling hours of circle grinding into your character to get to the level they are - so others should have to do the same?

Is it that effort has gone into the best way to optimize your character and the leveling path they have taken, and you don't want different pathways available to others?

Is it simply you don't want the competition at higher levels?

I'd simply like to know why there is a staunch defense of rewarding one style of play (that of killing things, and more recently exploring the isle and selling captured creatures) instead of looking at other ways of rewarding other styles of play that contribute to the overall atmosphere of the server.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:13 am

Some Summery Thoughts

Arelith is an Roleplay server, it would be nice to give more options for leveling rather than 'going out and killing stuff.' So that those who are more none combat characters (or who don't have the time/connections to adventure much) can do their thing.

Counter Argument: But arelith is also an Adventure server. Why should Joe, who has killed 100 dragons, slain a 1000 goblins and laid waste to the Manor of Morn, traversed the underdark and traveled the very Planes of Existance themselves, be of a lower level than Tom, who spends all his day roleplaying selling Cheese in Cordor market. Is it not fair that those who take greater risks and do more adventurous things, be more powerful than those who don't? In short - why to the 'NPC' type characters need to level at all?

Follow Up Argument: Because certain aspects of characterisation - e.g. Skill points, Crafting Points, and so on are tied to levels. Because if I want to play my Cheesemonger, I want my points in appraise and cooking to do so properly. Also because being of a certain level is useful for just traveling around the isle/gathering items. Also because sadly you can find yourself cut out of roleplay if you're not a high enough level for some things. It rarely happens, but I have seen it and it's a bit frustrating. Not to mention that you get goodies for rolling a HIgh Level character. And that seems to give preference to those who just grind all day getting neat 5% awards.

Counter Follow Up Argument: Alright, but all these things can abused. The Grinders who want to level up fast will just find the new way to gain optimal xp and do that too. And if we up peoples crafting points from the start up, people may just make such characters and use them to help out their friends for free. Also there's the issue of how we give out the extra XP, each of which has its own problem.


This is a rough summery of some of the argument I think?

I've seen the argument a few times, that 'Levels Don't Matter'. With people taking different sides of 'They do' or 'They don't.' Personaly It's my opinion that Levels are like icing sugar on a cake, and the roleplay is the Cake. The Roleplay is, yes, more of what matters - but the delcious icing on top sure is really nice too. Yeah, maybe I am mostly playing a 'roleplay character' but it is also really, really nice to level. It's in our gaming subconcious I think, that to 'level' is an award, a good thing, a sign you've gotten better at The Game. It's hard to seperate that, so I whilst I follow the argument of, 'Well why does your npc character need to level?' I can also follow the other side too.

I'm not going to provide any answers- I don't have any. But I do have some ideas?

1) As the argument is basicaly 'killing xp' vs 'none killing xp' where the latter is supposed to represent a more 'roleplay focused character' (and this is basicaly your argument Thera) then the follow up goes that logicaly it should be based around RPR. Giving xp for crafting does not mean we're rewarding you for being a good rper, it just means we're rewarding you for pressing the 'craft item' button. The problem then (and I'm freely admitting this as a DM) is that we arn't always so good at catching the good roleplayers. And adding more 'weight' to that system might cause problems. But if we did do it that way, then maybe either increasing the range of ratings (10-60 say) or just doubleing the amount of xp everyone gets (instead of 10xp per tick, you now get 20. Instead of 20 you now get 40 ect) would probably be the way to go? But again, it does lead to accusations of Dm favoritism and, also, the falibility of DMs in general.

2) I've seen ways to hide XP gain in some areas. If we did add a lot of none combat ways to gain XP, rejigged the rpr system AND then hide the xp you got from all these sources (including monster killings) this might have an interesting effect perhaps?

3) On another server I saw xp bonuses given out for just -talking- to people. Just typing and chatting. This seems like an interesting idea, though again it would be open to abuse.

With all being said, this is a multifaceted issue and I really don't know what a good answer is. I will ask however, that people are tolerant to each other and try to keep t empers in check. I've already noticed a little freying here and there. Please, keep things calm and civil. Everyone has some good points to make here.

Well,
This too shall pass.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:18 am

Sadly this has been a tired old song for many years. Let me make it clear I fully agree with the OP that there should be more ways to gain XP then killing everything in your path. I have noticed a lot of times that when I actively RP and yes RP should be its own reward but when you are engaged in mentor apprentice RP I'd say you should have learned something from that as well.

I'd also agree for pure merchant and crafting rp that it would be a good idea to seperaat the crafting mechanics from the level system and have crafting level up on a seperaat progression. Something like what you see in some Mmo games where crafting something a x amount of time makes you a better crafter. But I'd say that you should only be able to grow in one profession like this.

As for making wands scrolls and potions for caster classes I'd keep the gold cost for it. But why does it still have to cost XP. That never made any sense what so ever. It only pushes a crafter of wands or potions to actively go grinding XP so they can keep up with demand.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:43 am

A thought I had, that is not directly related to the OP, but more so people without much play time.

Each character/player has a pool of EXP that resets daily, let's say this pool has a total of 1000 EXP, it will drain faster than the adventure pool, but it can't be increased, it resets the day after. Active players won't receive much of an impact given they should have a steady supply from adventuring/RPB/adventure EXP, but more casual players will likely notice a large difference.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Iceborn » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:48 am

Daily mechanics are something that I'm personally averse of.
Even in this matter.

To be quite honest, the suggestion of the adventure mode is the best thing I've read in the suggestion box in the last month.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by High Primate » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:56 am

DarkDreamer wrote:
Lorkas wrote:500 per tick is 5000 an hour, which is a lot. 87 hours of playtime to level 30 without needing to do a single thing in game.
87 hours is a LOT of time compared to some players who hit 30 in under a week from mass grinding, though the Devs could choose to reduce the amount.
You can't hit 30 in 87 hours.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:57 am

Iceborn wrote:Daily mechanics are something that I'm personally averse of.
Even in this matter.

To be quite honest, the suggestion of the adventure mode is the best thing I've read in the suggestion box in the last month.
It is indeed but it still is based on only rewarding for killing and nothing else. And the OP is advocating more ways to earn XP without being a mass murderer. And for the deva without having to much work working the whole system so crafting would be separate from level as has been mentioned here as well.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by jinroh » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:10 am

I was trying to go with a simple to implement system as a suggestion. For something a bit more complex that would address the concerns I would probably do something like:

On level up you gain 1 crafting skill to spend.

For every 100 crafting points used your crafting skill of that type goes up by 1.

There is some combined cap to both these sources, let's say 30 + 1 per level. So combined at level 30 you're looking at the same 60 point cap.

Taking the pre-existing crafting gift changes the cap to 60 + 1/3 levels for a total of 70.

Now a smith actually has to work at being a smith etc.

Edit: Clarified it by changing the wording, took at the first paragraph to prevent things from going off topic.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Dunshine » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:20 am

I've been toying with an idea for a while that would be rewarding for none-combat, none-adventure role-play. In a nutshell, the RPR would be expanded with other factors, making it more dynamic, and it would be build up from activity in 4 main categories (in addition to the current RPR).

- Faction Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Craft/Trade Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Settlement/Politics Activity (0 to 10 points)
- Social Activity (0 to 10 points)

Those 4 meters would be updated once a week, and not immediately, to keep the exact formula of obtaining points hidden, and to try and prevent abuse of the mechanics behind it.

Note, this is a personal idea, not an admin stance or anything. Just posting it here as food for thought and receive feedback.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:24 am

And what kind of activities would for example make these numbers higher Dunshine?

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Dunshine » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:29 am

Things that would reflect activity/rp in those categories. I'm deliberately not posting the exact mechanics behind it, since *IF* we implement something like this, people aren't going to cheese the system. But I'm open to suggestions of how people think those meters could be build-up.

In general though:
- Each RL week the calculation of the meters is reset to zero, and during the week you can build up points.
- I've currently around 10 different things that would add 1 or 2 points for each category.
- At the end of the week the calculated points will be added to your RPR and be active for the next week, while the calculations reset again, and you need to build up points again.

This makes it dynamic and rewards activity.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Baseili » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:54 am

A pretty solid idea Dunshine, essentially a social XP pool. Out of curiousity would this pool be in addition to the current exploration system or would it override whenever you entered social zones (Cities, settlements and so forth) so as to be an alternative rather than addition?

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Dunshine » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:01 am

An addition. Your RPR would basically become higher then currently, thus increasing your RPR ticks, AND your AdvXP ticks.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:15 pm

Argument no. 1: making a character who refuses to fight and focuses solely on crafting and haggling RP equals a conscious OOC decision to only ever use a fraction of mechanics available to you. Such conscious decision is not without consequences, just own up to it as you will never be able to level up at the same rate as players who did not make the decision to limit themselves in such fashion.

Argument no. 2: The decision to play a tinkering scrub should also come with a realization that such character has no business becoming a lvl 30 wizard with a maxed up bank account (which is something that the already existing system fully supports btw. - all that it takes is time and determination).

Argument no. 3: any system that might be implemented would inevitably be taken advantage of by players who choose to squeeze the maximum out of the tools available to them in order to "optimize" their XP gain rate. In other words, mechanically savvy circlegrinders would benefit more out of this - simply by the merit of any possible system that could have been be implemented would ultimately reward online time spent IG before anything else.

Suggestion: Tweak MoD for this purpose - just increase the XP rate gain by a reasonable margin (and maybe make PvP deaths not count). This mechanic has been originally implemented precisely to cater this sort of playstyle as PvE happy players don't really care for it in any shape and form, and players who shy away from grinding don't expect their characters to die a lot.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by AnselHoenheim » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:26 pm

I think this is not the right way of tweaking the progress of crafting on a character, I mean, okay, we are saying that characters that focuses on crafting should get more crafting skill points per progression, as they naturally are working on their trade, so, why not remove entirely the crafting skill progression from levels, and create a new proper system that rewards as, more crafting made would turn into more crafting skill points for the character, as, if more DC has the product it's trying to produce, the higher crafting XP can get? That would reward greatly those characters that are focusing mostly on crafting, and, which is logical, those who only focuses on battle, and adventuring, would need to contact these characters for producing their nice gear? It would improve RP between both type of characters, no one could be able to "Cheese XP" from crafting, and everyone will be happy enough.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Ozzy.nl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:30 pm

There will always be people who will try to find loopholes and abuse systems you can never stop that at all. In my opinion it does not justify giving others a boon who hardly go out grinding. Further more I can think of many rp ways that would in the basis give right to a xp boon. As a example guard rp the guard must be able to defend a city but they will mostly be in the city as well to actually guard it and uphold the law. The things they would see and experience would make them grow stronger and smarter about certain situations aka gaining a level. So in Dunshine proposed idea this would make a lot of sense. And no you can't stop a powerleveler from abusing this system.

A mage studying with his master is another sughs example of which they grow, and thus gaining a level because of new achievements and spell circles studied. And I think others can give more idea as well.

These examples alone involve no slaying of monsters but should infarct represent growth.

My two cents

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Diilicious » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:13 pm

If you take no risks why should you be rewarded?? this is still a game...
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:31 pm

You know what would be great, with haks?

"NPC" classes. They have a very low health hit die, barely give any AB, don't grant many general feats but allow for bonus feats from a certain pool, and maybe even grant special commoner abilities. And, if this is possible, they require less XP to level up. There would also need to be some changes to the rolling system, perhaps.

But basically it's a class that acts as a filler, effectively giving you levels but doesn't really make you that much stronger.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Kirito » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:31 pm

Diilicious wrote:If you take no risks why should you be rewarded?? this is still a game...
Conversely, this is a game, why should you not be rewarded for doing something other than taking risks and killing stuff.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Artos13 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:37 pm

It doesn't solve the merchant/crafter issues in this thread, but I highly advise those that want to play NPC type characters and one-offs to apply to be DMs. It's really a great way to be able to do this.

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