Please - XP progression from other than hacking up things

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Thera
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Please - XP progression from other than hacking up things

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:48 am

This one is more aimed at the Devs. Happy for it to go into a constructive conversation about different mechanisms to achieve the desired end - but let's not let this devolve into an anti-grinding thread/anti-rpr thread please.

So, I've been taking a break for a bit. As have most of my real world friends who have played on Arelith for more than a few years. But it's getting to the point where we are more excited watching the update thread than actually playing - it's brilliant to see the amount of passion, time and effort being invested into the server right now - but in some ways, some players are being left behind.

I came to Arelith for the RP about a decade ago. I get that times change, but especially over the last 6 months it feels like it's trending more and more towards MMORPG's.

We have:
- New crafting updates have shinier loot,
- Area and creature overhalls for better scaling,
- Discussions about appropriate areas for faster leveling,
- An influx of players who have historically been more exposed to WoW, Diablo III, and competitive games that involve PvP (Lol, CS, etc) - which is a shift away from the playerbase traditionally coming from Pen and Paper.

Don't get me wrong. Arelith is still going strong where most of the other servers have died. The influx of new players and the server evolving to meet their expectations and style of play is good...

but...

For the RP heavy types who try and go for a whole-world immersion feeling, it does feel like it's getting a bit strained. I particularly play crafting characters - and when you are on to the 4th generation of near godlike creatures that you are making wands for and you are still at level 12, it gets a little rough. There are those of us when we play a character - we play them from level 1. It defeats the purpose to be a world explorer and kill a whole heap of creatures until we get to x level so we finally be the vegan monk that doesn't squash an ant.

Adventure XP has helped - significantly. Yet if one of my characters has no reason to go somewhere, then they aren't going to. They aren't going to go on a tour of the island to build a massive pool of adventure XP because that's simply not who they are. If I've got a Strength 5 gnome, I'm going to buy sand and coal to make glass for crafting, not tumble on out into the wildness.

Gift of Humility helps a little bit - but once again, it comes from hacking things up. There are players that hate the grind, and would rather spend their time researching, writing, crafting, selling, and just being part of the world.

RPR used to help a lot - but for multiple reasons RPR isn't all that fashionable any more. Mostly because it comes down to the judgement of DM's, and the sometimes terse relationship between players and DM's.

Grinding has been an issue since time immemorial. Grinders going to grind. Power Levelers are going to power level. We saw what happened with the anti-grind script, and no amount of Dev or DM intervention is going to ever have a significant effect on this. So can we please bite the bullet and throw a lifeline to the NPC type players?

So - what can be done?
It's important to point out, right at the start, that these suggestions will be abused by power levelers - but they are going to do their thing anyway. The benefit to those who will appreciate it outweighs the harm that can be caused by those who are going to find other ways race to level 30 anyway.

1. Give adventure XP for using crafting points.

2. Give adventure XP for settlement leaders, and the leaders of factions over x players (done by CD key if possible)

2. If it's possible, give an adventure XP cookie that increases the longer you are in an area (only while you are active.) This represents being at work, studying the area, practicing social skills. Whatever. Have it kick in after 2(?) ticks (12 min?) starting at whatever and maxing out a 5x whatever. Moving area resets this. Going AFK makes this inactive (similar to the old RPR script).

3. Integrate scribe scroll, brew potion, and craft wand into the crafting system so it no longer drains XP and gold. Because unless you are a level 30 with XP to burn, getting involved in this part of the economy comes at the trade off of character progression.

Remove blank wands / bottles / scrolls so these have to be crafted and thereby make a real market for them. Then to use the feats you have to have a stock of crafted objects like spell components. Then have yet still have another object (like what is needed to scribe certain scrolls) to use the feat (3 in total). You already have to burn a feat on two of these in most cases, and for those of us in the service industry for other players, well, that's punishment enough

Off the cuff idea - I'd also happily trade off getting any xp from anything for a pool of adventure XP that would take you to level 30 disbursed over a set period of time. I've heard of people grinding there way up to level 30 in a matter of weeks. As someone who has never had a epic character over a decade of playing, I wouldn't mind if it took 6,9, 12 months. It would just be nice for it to happen while engaging in the elements of the server that I actually enjoy.

Anyway, have a think. Any contribution to the game time of those of us who are on the server for the RP/social elements rather than the hack/slash/pvp elements would be greatly appreciated.
"Arelith isn't about fun - It's about math, and WINNING"

Griefmaker
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:46 am

I definitely agree that I would like to see more XP for doing things other than mass murder all the time, even if some of my characters love mass murder more than they do their own mothers.

One thing I would like to see is RPR scaled up a bit from what it is. RPing might be its own reward, but mechanical progress is nice too. Double the RPR or adding more levels would be nice, in my opinion.

XP sources do not have to be direct additions either, such as the XP gained from kills. The adventure XP system is great and more systems feeding into that would be perfect.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:52 am

Another suggestion....a path....

Path of Ahimsa - Ahimsa IAST: ahiṃsā, Pāli: avihiṃsā) means 'not to injure' and 'compassion'

You earn "NO" xp from kills, explore xp is tripled, every tick you gain 500xp + adventure RP, the 500 is capped so that gift of humility doesn't effect it.

This path is designed to DIRECTLY effect those that WANT to rp. Rather then being forced into killing for XP.

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Lorkas
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Lorkas » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:17 am

500 per tick is 5000 an hour, which is a lot. 87 hours of playtime to level 30 without needing to do a single thing in game.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:56 am

Lorkas wrote:500 per tick is 5000 an hour, which is a lot. 87 hours of playtime to level 30 without needing to do a single thing in game.
87 hours is a LOT of time compared to some players who hit 30 in under a week from mass grinding, though the Devs could choose to reduce the amount.

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Cortex
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:59 am

Why would you get so much better at fighting without fighting?
:)

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Lorkas
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Lorkas » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:06 am

DarkDreamer wrote:
Lorkas wrote:500 per tick is 5000 an hour, which is a lot. 87 hours of playtime to level 30 without needing to do a single thing in game.
87 hours is a LOT of time compared to some players who hit 30 in under a week from mass grinding, though the Devs could choose to reduce the amount.
Are you sure about that? How many hours do you think someone is pouring in to reach 30 in a week? I'm not convinced that it's possible to sustain a rate of xp gain that would make me say 87 hours is a LOT in comparison.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:20 am

Again, Devs can choose to change the amount, its a damn suggestion, rather then nitpick little details, why not do something more creative and make counter suggestions on ways to improve the path?

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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:24 am

It's DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, not Clerks & Turnips

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Cortex
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:46 am

I am all for different means of adventure/discovery EXP, but that needs to include just that, adventure and discovery. Not free EXP for simply existing, I think that goes against what Adventure EXP and what the point of Arelith is.

Not that it is my call to make, but getting a bit of Adventure EXP for completing certain training tasks every few IG day(s) could be interesting at least. Like a fighter or barbarian practicing in the arena or against a dummy, a mage testing a spell on a dummy, or a priest making a proper sacrifice to his deity. Things that involve them putting their powers to use.
:)

jinroh
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by jinroh » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:54 am

Alternate suggestion:

So from my understanding, you want to be able to play a crafter, an NPC type of character, right?

To me, that type of character isn't about personal power, but being able to do a job well. They don't have to go hunting for Iron, they pay others to do it for them and make something from it. If they do venture out they pay for bodyguards (or offer a discount on crafting gear for them).

Where currently that falls apart is the crafting points being tied to level, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. You could add a more extreme gift, let's call it:

Gift of the Expert (maybe a min RPR requirement?):
20 crafting skill points to start
-4 to all stats

That puts you in the range with other gifts and a tiny bit of leveling to be able to make most anything if you dump it into 1 profession, but you're going to be a terrible adventurer.

So a powerful adventurer can still become an expert in a craft, a crafter that never adventures can still become an expert but would make a poor adventurer due to their average as opposed to herculean abilities.

As far as XP for crafting wands/scrolls, if you no longer care about leveling up that frees up a lot of RPR ticks for just making expendable magic items.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:55 am

The idea behind it, peaceful monks that take a vow against causing harm, Ilmaterian members who vow against it, people that want to RP farmers or gods forbid, common people that dont go adventuring.

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Cortex
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:01 am

DarkDreamer wrote:The idea behind it, peaceful monks that take a vow against causing harm, Ilmaterian members who vow against it, people that want to RP farmers or gods forbid, common people that dont go adventuring.
These people will logically be weaker than a battle driven warrior or a monk who pushes himself to his limits.
:)

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:06 am

What says a monk has to kill things to drive to their full potential, Monks are generally defensive and peaceful, avoiding conflict for the most part. Its time and practice often on dummies and the likes that grant their ability.

Thera
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 am

Cortex wrote:I am all for different means of adventure/discovery EXP, but that needs to include just that, adventure and discovery. Not free EXP for simply existing, I think that goes against what Adventure EXP and what the point of Arelith is.
Arelith is an RP server. It isn't just free EXP for simply existing. It's for crafting, researching, doing whatever your character does. Which is a lot more than just hitting and killing things.

Leveling also increases your skill points... for example healing. It makes no sense to spending long amounts of time in game healing folks, and not getting any better at it, just because you aren't wandering around the island or killing things.

Leveling also increases your craft points... why would you get to be a better carpenter by killing things? Once again, it makes no sense if you spending a long amount of time in game working wood, and you once again don't get any better because you aren't slaughtering anything that moves.
Last edited by Thera on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thera
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 am

jinroh wrote: Gift of the Expert (maybe a min RPR requirement?):
20 crafting skill points to start
-4 to all stats
Take points from AB or AC instead of stats. Blacksmiths are likely to be a hell of a lot stronger than any type of warrior - why should they have less strength? Why would a mage who spends his time studying the arcane have less intelligence?

More than happy to be worse off at fighting - which is what players like myself aren't really interested in.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:15 am

If such a gift was added, a fair compromise would be:
•Pure class only, cannot take prestige or multi-class.
•Starting CON (pre-gift penalty) cannot exceed 10.
:)

Thera
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:18 am

-XXX- wrote:It's DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, not Clerks & Turnips
Dungeons and Dragons is 100% about ROLE PLAY. If someone wants to be a clerk, then let them.

I'm just trying to remember the character that was in the Cordor Guard a while back who absolutely relished the paperwork and the court cases. They had other players to do the enforcing for them. At the least they should of had the chance to increase their charisma and wisdom stats, and their skills, as they played.
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:24 am

Something else I had not thought about, is also the fact how easy it would be to create throw away characters to help a friend get an item they need crafted for free.
:)

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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:36 am

ALL characters on an RP server are RP characters. Calling PC vendor characters "RP characters" can be misleading, because it veiledly suggests that the interaction with these characters offers a more in-depth RP experience than the interaction with "regular adventurer" types of characters. This is a notion I strongly resent and disagree with as my own IG experience has thought me and repeatedly confirmed that the exact opposite is true.
Thera wrote:Dungeons and Dragons is 100% about ROLE PLAY. If someone wants to be a clerk, then let them.
If that's the way you're looking at then I'd fully expect a 100% roleplay from the clerk character player and NEVER EVER in the character's (presumably VERY short) lifespan to hit the lvl up button EVER. Doing anything else would classify as a critical failiure in an attempt to attain "100% roleplay" as neither the D&D handbook nor the NWN game mechanic offers any lvl progression for the "clerk class".
Last edited by -XXX- on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thera
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:44 am

Cortex wrote:If such a gift was added, a fair compromise would be:
•Pure class only, cannot take prestige or multi-class.
•Starting CON (pre-gift penalty) cannot exceed 10.
Don't agree on prestige or multi class as a blanket rule as most classes have non-combat roles. I'd agree specifically to fighter and weapon master being unavailable.

I still think leaving stats alone, and focusing on things that are combat orientated is the way to go.

Reduction to AC, AB.
Maybe inability to wear Heavy Armour.
Can't take weapon specialization feats, blind fight, combat casting, disarm, knockdown, etc.
Take away racial battle training feats and favored enemies.
Cortex wrote:Something else I had not thought about, is also the fact how easy it would be to create throw away characters to help a friend get an item they need crafted for free.
Throw away characters are already a thing - but mostly with grinding characters with people trying to get 5%'s.

If it's worthwhile to play a crafting character, it's more likely that people won't throw them away - but right now, playing a crafting/non-combat focused character can really suck...

My main at the moment is a potion brewer/wand maker/scroll scriber. Their build is completely sub-optimal (as are all my characters), but it's the EXP that kills me. It goes like this:

1: Every time I log on I get massive orders of which comes out of rather neat RP.
2: But this completely destroys the EXP I have, to which I've got to keep up else I'll lose levels and can't make all the things.
3: Which forces me to make up excuses of "resource collecting" to go out grinding, just to keep up with the RP. (Resources that i'd rather buy from other characters, hence helping build the economy and giving calls to adventure to other players who enjoy the adventuring element.)
4: Being forced to go out grinding on a sub-optimal character who in all rights shouldn't be out killing things breaks "my 'mersion" and I lose interest in playing. Arelith begins to feel like a task.
5: The other character's who order and interact with my crafter lose out on RP and supplies.

As a side note, i'm rather surprised about how hospitable the Underdark has been to that little guy. I've been pretty heavily advertising the fact that as a slave he's owned by the City, and it's pretty obvious does tremendous trade. Everyone's been too nice just to buy him and take the profits for themselves.
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Thera
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Thera » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:48 am

-XXX- wrote: If that's the way you're looking at then I'd fully expect a 100% roleplay from the clerk character player and NEVER EVER in the character's (presumably VERY short) lifespan to hit the lvl up button EVER. Doing anything else would classify as a critical failiure in an attempt to attain "100% roleplay" as neither the D&D handbook nor the NWN game mechanic offers any lvl progression for the "clerk class".
From the NWN Wiki:

Rogues have little in common with each other. While some - maybe even the majority - are stealthy thieves, many serve as scouts, spies, investigators, diplomats, and simple thugs.

If a rogue can be an investigator or diplomat, then they can do some clerking.

It may be worth taking a deep breath and relaxing a little. No one is calling into question the way you play the game, or the enjoyment you get from it. It may be worth thinking about that other people may interpret classes a little different from you, and may enjoy the game for other reasons than you do.
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-XXX-
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by -XXX- » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:57 am

You are literally asking for the devs to implement changes that would cater to your personal specific playstyle. I'm not criticizing you for trying to be the special snowflake, but I have allowed myself the audacity to question the notion that you should be rewarded for it.
Last edited by -XXX- on Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Dunshine » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:02 am

What is the main issue for crafter types not gaining levels (as quick as adventurer types)? I think it's the crafting skill points right? Everything else is not relevant for none-adventuring types? If the crafting skill points could be increased for those type of characters in other ways, would you still care about the levelling aspect?

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Cortex
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Re: Please - XP progression from other than hacking up thing

Post by Cortex » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:38 am

Throw away characters are already a thing - but mostly with grinding characters with people trying to get 5%'s.
It takes a little more effort to do that, meanwhile a character that gets crafting points right off the bat, more so than Gift of Crafting would give, would be able to craft a plethora of items at no time consumption of the player.
:)

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