Healing Kit Change Feedback

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WinkinBlinkin
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Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:13 am

The loss of meat from the recipes is welcomed. It did not fit in with my character's rp of the item.

I think the crafting points required needs tweaking, however. Anyone who makes healing kits is not making much profit from them. Its a lot of work even trying to keep up with demand at a price below the player shops. I think most people who do it would say that they are doing it to feel like they are giving something back to the server.

The base rate that makes the decision if something is worth crafting for me, and I think many others, is 50 gp per crafting point. I never go below that mark. At 16 crafting points (need to include the small cloth) for 250 gold, +1 kits come in at 15.625 gold per crafting point, putting them in the abysmal range.

Some of my other prices for comparison:
glass - 1 crafting point, 250 gold
spell components - 9 crafting points, 700 gold
skleens - 6 crafting points, 600 gold
bark skin - 3 crafting points, 750 gold

I would strongly suggest lowering the point cost for the +1 kits to at most 4, placing them at a total of 5 crafting points. This means you can sell them at 250gp and still meet the base requirements (but still gives some wiggle room to sell them for less, if you want to take the hit to undercut your competition).

I'm not the one who crafts and prices the "opium" for the underdark, and only deal in +1 kits for my character's shop in the web, but I will add what I think are sensible crafting costs for the other kits a little later, when I get my hands on the standard prices for the other strength of kits.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by caldura firebourne » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:55 am

I have to agree with this, at the current crafting point cost it's "maybe" enough to supply yourself with healing kits, not so much if you want to sell off the excess or run a shop for cheap healing kits as one crafter assuming they've taken the gift of craftsmanship and never roll a 1 can make 40 +1 kits per in game day

no way you're supplying more than one person with kits at that rate and it only gets worse
+3's cost 20 craft points which in the same scenario above means 30 kits per day, assuming no 1's are rolled
+6's cost 30 CP so again, no ones means 20 kits per day
+10's cost 40, this I can agree with, I'd rather not see the market flooded with these kits but it means a grand total assuming the gift of craftsmanship and no 1's rolled of 15 kits per in game day


love the ingredient cost changes, love the crafting DC's though, and I like where the +10 kits are at right now personally
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Irongron
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Irongron » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:31 am

This issue of the crafting point cost was exactly what we discussed.

As it stood the DC on crafting healing kits did't really make it an option to a higher level (9+) so while the crafting point cost was very low, it took longer before people could make them.

It is also worth noting that it is still relatively recently that we upped crafting points to 50 a day at all levels, and healing kits were originally designed when a level 10 character would have 20.

There is also the question of materials. Making healing kits I found that the problem was never crafting points, but just how quickly I burned through materials, especially salt and meat. Sure I can make endless kits, but it really was a full time and rather boring job. Most times I eventually gave up simply because I didn't want to play a salt-mining game.

This will change the market in a few interesting ways. First off, more people will be able to make amd trade healing kits, given that it requires a lower DC and far less materials, but on the other that one simply can't make as many (though its less work get the ingredients)

It also alters the utility of player farms, and private gardens, as many of these allow Lady's Tear and Strideleaf to be planted.

That's not so day point requirement couldn't be dropped a little, perhaps from 15 to 10. I'll be watching the market to see the effects of the current change first though.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by caldura firebourne » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:19 am

While I'm going to miss being able to mass produce these, I can understand and accept this direction.
Thanks for the response!
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Lorkas
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Lorkas » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:11 pm

Most of the gems are 62.5 gp/cp if you drop them in the scales, for comparison.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Darkness_Dawns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:36 pm

Irongon,

I really like the changes to the kits because it makes alot more sense, however I feel the same way they do about the price per CP. Is there anyway that we could instead RAISE the price of +1 / +3 healers kits in the NPC shops to help compensate? Maybe like 600 GP per 10? That would be an EASY fix for the whole problem and make buying / selling kits in the players market alot more profitable.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:18 pm

Just wanted to add in to the feedback. My character's rp is based around supplying "opium" to the underdark. Its far from my most profitable product, but I like the rp of it. The changes to ingredients fit the herbal base far better than meat, which was always tricky to explain, but I have to agree with what people are saying about the crafting points costs.

Currently, the crafting point cost is pretty low, but there are still only two shops in the underdark which sell healing kits, because its more a labour of love than a profit making scheme.

Here are my costs, before and after this change:

Before
+1 4cp for 250gp = 62.5 gp/cp
+3 5cp? for 395gp = 79 gp/cp
+7 8cp? for 495gp = 70.7 gp/cp
+10 13cp 595gp = 45.8 gp/cp

Now
+1 16cp for 250gp = 15.6 gp/cp
+3 21cp for 395gp = 18.8 gp/cp
+7 31cp for 495gp = 16.0 gp/cp
+10 41cp 595gp = 14.5 gp/cp

You can see how much the bottom has fallen out of this market from those figures. The limitation was never about gathering resources - that was a source of rp, getting the lowbies to collect things for you. Even at the lower crafting points, and the higher reward, it was absolutely impossible to keep up with player demand. Now, its pointless even trying. Healing kits used to be one of the few things you could put in a shop that people actually wanted to buy. Whilst I can see where this change is coming from, and what its trying to achieve, I think unless you sort out the amount that can be produced, you're just going to stop anyone bothering at all.

Crafting for trade is always going to be something that only appeals to the small fraction of the server that actually gets pleasure from it. I understand that your thought process was "lower the dc, increase the cp to compensate", but really, the two things aren't that directly related. If you can't physically make enough healing kits to supply more than one person, you're not going to become a healing kit trader.

TLDR: Love the change, just needs a tweak.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Wytchee » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:11 pm

Yip.

I was thinking about sinking 20 or so points into herbalism, but eh... if 50 daily crafting points is only going to yield 2 stacks of kits (not counting automatic failures on 1s), I'll just put points into carpentry instead. The cp cost is too high to justify selling them, and too high to justify making them for yourself unless you very, very rarely go adventuring. I recall it being frustrating enough only being able to make 4-5 stacks on my last herbalism character. Not worth the cp, imho.

As has been said by others, no one makes healing kits to make money. Personally, every stack I make has a custom description because I feel it adds variety to the world. I'd make meals and stuff with vivid descriptions of ingredients, smells and tastes, etc. Won't be doin' that now.

The change to ingredients is great, but cp cost is sadly just too darn high.
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Darkness_Dawns » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:53 pm

I guess that is one thing. If I knew that these changes were going to be in effect, I probably would not have put any points into herbalism at all. It's just not a profitable venture at all; usually I was just making kits for myself / people in my guild, but now it's not even really possible to do that anymore. Is there any way we can get our trade points reset or?

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Seekeepeek » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:27 am

Yay! finally my wasted 2 cooking skill can come to use after Mith lowered the highest craft-able poisons 2 points, now that the +10 kits need 35 cooking. :3

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Irongron » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:04 am

I've lowered crafting points required to 10, 15, 20, 35

50 kits per game day seems more than reasonable given the lower DC and ingredient change.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by caldura firebourne » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:38 am

Irongron wrote:I've lowered crafting points required to 10, 15, 20, 35

50 kits per game day seems more than reasonable given the lower DC and ingredient change.

I can also understand and accept this direction, and will promptly follow along at autobahn speeds
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StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:07 pm

Thanks for responding to feedback. I don't think the most recent change actually helps those people for whom making kits was a big part of their roleplay. Its still not feasible to make them in sufficient quantities for resale. Presumably, the decision was taken to allow characters to be more self sufficient in kit production. At the lower costs, perhaps it will achieve this, perhaps not. Hopefully, someone is monitoring whether there actually is an uptake in people crafting healing kits. From my perspective, it will stop me from crafting them completely. I predict the result of this change will be to remove all player made kits from stores and result in a glut of bark skin on the market.

If the problem was that healing kits were not attractive to people to make, why not just lower the dcs, reduce the ingredients and keep the crafting points the same? I'd rather you didn't though, as I like to see people having to make some investment to craft things. I didn't see an issue with things the way they were and I don't see a huge problem with people having to wait until 7th level to reliably make them. A lot of people reach that in a single day.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:02 pm

Sorry to keep posting, but the more I think about this change, the less I understand it. I don't think the ingredients are now easier to get hold of. I think they're actually much harder. You've upped the crafting point cost, upped the difficulty of acquiring ingredients and upped the dc on the stronger healing kits. Honestly, people made these to help out lowbies and to enjoy rping them as meals, or opium, or whatever. They were one of the few things people actually liked seeing in player shops. Its not like people were abusing creating healing kits!

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Aero Silver » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:37 pm

I have something to add.
The price of manufactured opium is 500 at the player stores now, while NPCs sell it for 372. The difference is minor and trivial. But i am concerned about the RP repercussions.

House Khal'Naust alone supplies the opium and morphine for the UD society. That house is a political dwarf, but an economic giant. I enjoy the story behind it, as the actions of two cousins and their bartender are creating a drug addicted society. And in their selfishness or apathy, they are slowly destroying the society from within. It kind of reminds me of the Mordinos Family in Fallout 2.

Snorting opium is not the same as applying a bandage on a boo-boo. Mind that my main character is advanced in levels that using +1 kits don't cut it anymore. But i use it on party groups because it serves to numb the pain.

So my request is, please don't take this feature from house Khal'Naust and from the UD in general. The house can't pretend to sell drugs for long without players forgetting about it.

Even returning meat to healing kit crafting is not a bad idea. You could RP using rothe manure for the process (just collect your meat from the diseased wild rothe and don't discuss your sources with potential customers).

Yes, i agree that the House got filthy rich in the process. But that shows a shrewd business sense from the players' side. They should not be punished for using their heads. This isn't Vegas where you get banned if you use math when playing Blackjack.

These are my two cents.
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:38 pm

Thanks Aero for your appreciation of our rp. :)


For the record, I've never promoted addiction rp. I thought opium would be setting appropriate which is the reason why I chose it. Also, Khal'naust didn't get rich from opium. It helped, but there are much more profitable items to sell than opium.

I like the idea of raising the NPC prices for healing kits as well. A good suggestion which wouldn't undercut the player based market and still allow others to craft their own kits at the same time.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Durvayas » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:34 pm

If La'laskrans believed in using painkillers, I'd be buying all the opium for my faction's lowbies, but I do have to point out, goods that cost more to produce than you can just buy them from NPCs has been a long standing problem with player goods.

Blank wands, blank scrolls, blank potions, barbarian helmets(horn of a magic creature is a rare and expensive good), the vast majority of all feat-brewable potions, virtually all ammunition that isn't damask.

While the khalnausts in the UD can partly absorb the costs by raising the price of their basic 'opium' kits to 300 to remain competitive vs the NPC market, that still puts them, on their easiest variety(+1 kits) at 250% CP usage by comparison to before, at a roughly 50% lower profit margin per CP point spent. What was a labor of love is now a masochistic practice. Theres simply no way to keep up with demand AND remain competitive with NPCs without turning the mercantile into a full time job.

Their cheapest kits are generally devoured by lowbies, being that they are the cheapest option, and this change will also harm the lowbie economy in the UD slightly by raising costs.

Raising the average price of kits on NPCs is a good option, a favorable one, in my opinion, because there has never been any good reason to buy any of the NPC healing potions due to how cheap kits are by comparison. Cost effectiveness has always been on the side of the healing kit(especially at low levels, where an AoO often means dying).
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:33 pm

Could someone from the powers that be please explain, other than changing the recipe so it fits better with herbalism, the rationale behind the change to healing kits.

As it stands it makes no sense. The reason given pertaining to low level pc's being able to be more self sufficient by being able to craft these items is a bit misleading. As was shown above a player only had to wait until 7th level before being able to make a DC 15 +1 healing kit without fail (excluding 1's).

I believe it was also stated that it was "boring" to collect the resources needed. I know games are supposed to be fun and if they aren't people won't play them but, I don't see why having to put in a little bit of effort to receive a reward as detrimental to the overall enjoyment level of a player.

I can see a couple of reasons why this change was made. The first is so players gold goes from their bank accounts to an NPC and not to another PC's bank account. Perhaps this is a bit cynical of me. The second and less cynical reason I can see is so resources which, prior to the change, were not used frequently now have some value in the crafting system, yet this still doesn't explain the increase in crafting points required to make the items in question.

There are most likely other reasons I cannot think of as well. I would just like a bit more discussion as to why. A more in depth explanation for the change from those who made the decision would be greatly appreciated. A discussion on how to implement this change without undercutting the player economy on such an item would also be warranted.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Seekeepeek » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:32 am

well.. Irongron gave his reason higher up in the topic.
I'd advice to give it some months and see how it work out?
if it's bad.. it may get changed.. if it's better it properly remains.

all in all it's just opinions that clash (yours and irongron) without much data from the new system (considering one properly haven't found all the easy places to get the resources and get into a new routine for crafting)

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:13 pm

Please don't make this about Irongon vs me. It isn't. If people have something to add to the topic and not wishing to speak for DM's or Dev's I would very much like their input.

As for the reasons. I've addressed those that pertain to my points. The issues are DC cost, CP costs and the undermining of the player run economy. There was no issues before the implemented changes. . No one complained about kits other than the recipe.

As for facts, I been rping my merchant for a year and a half now. I believe I have a bit of knowledge about the topic at hand. I am not an expert but I do feel like I have my finger on the pulse of the issues.

If the change was about quantity of craftable items per session then, as many have stated, it wasn't enough to keep up with demand prior to the change and now it is impossible. The increased DC's and CP's for top end kits is absurd. No one made +10 kits before and I can pretty much guarantee they won't now. Almost tripling the CP cost for +1 kits ensures none will make those either.

Is it really that wrong of me to desire a public and transparent discussion on the topic?

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:24 am

Have been toying around with Herbalism and I got some feedback (from personal experience alone).

-Farming around the module for resources (both surface and underdark) led me to believe Strideleaf are less common than Lady's tear which is supposed to be their higher tier kits.

-Giant bones - I never found a single one, among many dead giants, ogres, trolls and w/e. Kind of overly rare for what you build them into, no?

-Invisablity potion has Mojo in it's recipe (why?) and they come out in singles, making them overly resource consuming and not worth making unfortunately at all.

-Can we get a recipe for Empty Wine Bottles?
1. there's no in game reason why people can make all shapes of bottles and vials but cant make these.
2. You craft consumables with them - not rare, runic gear. So having more access to them would be nice.

Thank you.
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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by AnselHoenheim » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:46 am

I really would love either to see a change in the sweetberry wine recipe, exchange the useless empty wine bottles that are rare to find out to glass bottles, so we don't need to raid bandits for "bottle hoarding" which I believe seems so useless when you reach the point you can slap bandits with your backhand.

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Re: Healing Kit Change Feedback

Post by Rogaku » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:33 pm

I second this and would like some modification of the booze recipes (Wine and normal Beer) as we well... or, make the Wine bottles another craftable (though that seems excessive)
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