On Kensai and Mundane Items

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Twily
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On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Twily » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:12 pm

Sorry for the rather long winded post, but after looking over the upcoming Kensai changes, I feel the need to make this. I don't mean any disrespect to the newest update's creators and I appreciate the work you contributed to the server, but I really can't say I fully agree with what the class represents under these new changes.

I've been playing Kensai for a majority of the past three years now, and I've gotten quite used to it's upsides, downsides, and ways to bypass the limitations the path did have.

What I liked about Kensai:
- They were always at their best and ready to go, there was no reliance on a million potions or otherwise, and things like dispel magic (which is frighteningly common on Arelith) or ambushes on resting was no longer a threat.
- The enjoyment when I open a chest and find one of the key Mundane Items, Succor Stones, Restoration Pies, Season Wines and so on. It lets me gradually build up and hunt down my stockpile of tools(that others wouldn't expect me to have), rather than just effortlessly getting everything like everyone else. Hunting and treasure chest raiding on my kensai was actually a lot of fun after mundane items were created.
- The movement speed, the ability to get in and out of situations better than most classes, the time saved traveling between settlements(feeling less pressure to actually run), the increased ability to be scouts in parties (because lets be real, what party actually waits for the scout to stealth and move ahead.. not many) and so on. And most of all: the ability to charge NPC mages before they can react
- Having the extra AC. Getting 55+ AC on a Kensai without Expertice wasn't that hard, and always having that AC up and ready for a fight(undispellable, no buffs needed) is honestly far better than many give it credit for
- And most of all: The roleplay side to it. Being a semi-monastic warrior without being a true monk. Being able to roleplay that bond with ones weapon, their unique style of training.

What I worry about regarding the new update:
- It seems to basically turn Kensai into a "If you don't want UMD, take this", because the penalties are things that only really apply if you otherwise would have had UMD. A pure fighter for example can't use scrolls and wands anyways, so they loose literally nothing by taking Kensai. (this may end up throwing off the balance of things such as fighters)
- Makes the class conform to the meta- Builds a reliance on potions, will make the class/path played like most others, makes the class heavily susceptible to dispells, etc
- The loss of movement speed makes the character far more tedious to walk around on, reduces the ability to scout ahead in groups, makes it so one can't charge a mage before they cast any spells(meaning you're likely to get dispelled), and makes the character far worse at escaping from situations (which once again builds a larger reliance on dispellable things such as potions)
- Destroys the Mundane Item market. With Kensai able to use potions and restoration scrolls, the mundane item market is more or less destroyed(we already saw this happen with Guaji Root once Kensai was changed to not gain a speed boost from it). True Flames will be the only ones who actually need mundane items regularly, and a majority of the mundane items out there wouldn't even be wanted by a true flame.

-Kensai isn't about being a "non-magic warrior", it's about being a warrior in touch with their spiritual side, that has broken the limits of what normal warriors can achieve with their blades. It's the monk of the fighter world. I don't feel this newest update holds true to that as in addition to everything else, this doesn't pair well with being able to take Ranger, Paladin, Bard levels and so on.


How I would have fixed Kensai:
- A large number of issues/complaints people have are stated by those who don't play kensai, but many of them are fairly valid. However they could be solved by things like increasing the drop rates on the mundane GreaterRestoration stones, reducing the crafting points needed for PiesOfRestoration, reducing the ingredient cost on HealingDraughts, etc.
In short: making mundane items more accessible.
- Make it very obvious that Kensai is not for someone who has little experience on Arelith, nor for someone who wants to just fit in with the meta

Or even more so: If I was given the chance, I'd gladly have drafted up an entire overhaul myself, as I'm quite familiar with the mechanics and lore behind the path in both DnD 2 and 3, as well as NWN's mechanics and Arelith's balance.

Changes I'd suggest to the new version of Kensai:
- Blinding Speed Feat for Free (Haste(10) 1/day) OR
- Undispellable Haste X/day, OR
- Unlimited with Cooldown(5min?)

- A Movement Speed increase (even as low as 20% would be noticeable, and is comparable to what DnD2 Kensai are given)
- Removal of Ability to drink Potions and use of Restoration Scrolls
- Addition of and more easily accessible Mundane Items (NegEnergyProt, DeathWard, RestoPies, etc)

Summary:
- I feel like this update wasn't made with what a Kensai represents in mind, but was instead made as an alternative option to break the UMD reliance/meta, a way to toss a cookie/bone to those who opt to not have UMD in their build.
I feel it would have been better served as an alternate path, rather than a replacement of the previous Kensai, which although not perfect was closer to what the class represents than the newest update
Last edited by Twily on Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:22 pm

+10

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:36 pm

My reasoning for changing kensai to what it is now follow:

•The previous setup was too much of a "trap path", it gave no insight to new players to how bad it can get past level 10 ish. Even if there was a warning set saying "this path is meant for more experienced players/people looking for a challenge" or whatever, it'd still give the wrong impression that it's somehow rewarding. Not to mention nothing stops you from playing the way it was before, refusing to take potions.

•I thought less on the original kensai (because let's face it Arelith doesn't reflect most stuff from PnP 100%, not even NWN does), and more on a concept of "true warrior", where they give up any chance of using trinkets or magic an adventurer with UMD/spellcaster levels would in favor of mastering the art of combat, with greater offense and defense.

•It was not made as an alternative option to break UMD meta, only as an alternative easier and fun to play path that didn't detract more than necessary from character power. Kensai is now a direct upgrade to any build pre-UMD, meaning they're solid all the way to epics, and even after people get UMD, they're still fairly powerful on the grounds of having an extra full BAB attack, and a +2 AC that stacks on top of everything.

•Instead of making "mundane options that cover potions", I thought just allowing them potions would save a lot of hassle... otherwise, you're making mundane options that do the job of potions, when they could just be using potions. Not to mention the immense quality of life buff so non-monk kensai can actually restore themselves with magic, using all scrolls that do not require UMD to use.

Addendum: I did think about just renaming Kensai to something else, perhaps that can still be done.
:)

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Twily » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:44 pm

Cortex wrote:My reasoning for changing kensai to what it is now follow:

•The previous setup was too much of a "trap path", it gave no insight to new players to how bad it can get past level 10 ish. Even if there was a warning set saying "this path is meant for more experienced players/people looking for a challenge" or whatever, it'd still give the wrong impression that it's somehow rewarding. Not to mention nothing stops you from playing the way it was before, refusing to take potions.

•I thought less on the original kensai (because let's face it Arelith doesn't reflect most stuff from PnP 100%, not even NWN does), and more on a concept of "true warrior", where they give up any chance of using trinkets or magic an adventurer with UMD/spellcaster levels would in favor of mastering the art of combat, with greater offense and defense.

•It was not made as an alternative option to break UMD meta, only as an alternative easier and fun to play path that didn't detract more than necessary from character power. Kensai is now a direct upgrade to any build pre-UMD, meaning they're solid all the way to epics, and even after people get UMD, they're still fairly powerful on the grounds of having an extra full BAB attack, and a +2 AC that stacks on top of everything.

•Instead of making "mundane options that cover potions", I thought just allowing them potions would save a lot of hassle... otherwise, you're making mundane options that do the job of potions, when they could just be using potions. Not to mention the immense quality of life buff so non-monk kensai can actually restore themselves with magic, using all scrolls that do not require UMD to use.

Addendum: I did think about just renaming Kensai to something else, perhaps that can still be done.
Thank you for the reply, Knowing that does help.

As far as how you viewed the path when you made it: That is entirely fine, as you are correct that Arelith is never exactly like DnD.
I suppose my largest annoyance in regards to that, is that sword-monks are notoriously awful and Kensai was the closest thing there ever was.
Perhaps my attention should instead be turned on creating and suggesting a monastic sword path to make that roleplay set viable, rather than clinging to Kensai as I always played it.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Peppermint » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:50 pm

Setting the mechanics angle aside, I confess that I am puzzled on the lore angle.

Kensai do exist in PnP; that's true. In PnP, the class is called "Kensai (Weapon Master)", and has the same abilities as the Weapon Master PRC in NwN.

The Kensai path is perhaps poorly named, because it's obviously not that class; but if you wish to play that class, there's a PRC for it already in place.

At any rate, there's nothing preventing you from roleplaying kensai (or the weapon master PRC) as you choose to.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Terminal_Templari » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:56 pm

I've got a 30 kensai, and honestly... the only thing I dislike about this update truly? Is the +10 listen. I've dumped skill into SPOT and was working on spot gear, but now listen is the end-game good one to have. grr. Minor annoyance.

All told, good update. It makes Kensai less soloist and more party friendly. Haste turns us into blenders now.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:59 pm

You could rename the class to "Paragon" instead, or such (though clashes w/ Harper Paragon), implying personal perfection and internal power vs external magic, and isn't saddled with the kensai/weapon master/sword saint mythos.

There's also Forsaker from 3.0, but that explicitly works off of destroying magic to fuel its powers, so the theme doesn't translate over the best.

"Ascetic" keeps the monastic feel and implies something free from bonds, but may not be what you're looking for.

Re: the actual mechanics changes - being able to use pots is huge. While the reliance on mundane items is interesting: If mundane items do the same thing as magic items, and non-magic classes are expected to reasonably use these mundane items to acccomplish the same end effect, then the distinction is just aesthetic, and you're only taking up dev time and space needing to make clones of every 'necessity' in the server to serve both, when you could merge functionality. Being able to use pots alone brings the class to 'playable' for me, when I never, ever would have touched it before, even if the concept of a sort of 'anti-mage' / witch hunter is very appealing to me.
I've got a 30 kensai, and honestly... the only thing I dislike about this update truly? Is the +10 listen.
my guess is because Monk gets Listen, but not spot. Other than that, the Listen bonus does seem a little arbitrary. It's also explicitly worse than Spot in every way - but maybe that's the idea, to encourage a niche use for it? Not sure.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:02 pm

The only reason it was not added to Spot due to how it'd interact with disguises. Peppermint has since informed me this could be made an exception. It could still be a thing.
:)

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Twily » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:03 pm

To Peppermint:
The Kensai I am familiar with is the version found on P49 of Complete Warrior, a supplemental DnD 3.5 Sourcebook
http://trowa.big-metto.net/CORE_-_Complete_Warrior.pdf

There is also the Kensai kit for Fighters in Baulder's Gate 2, Which is a cloth wearing magic restricted warrior that has an emphasis on speed and agility to fight, with bonuses to AC, speed, damage and attack.(which always seemed to be what Arelith's Kensai was modeled after)

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Peppermint » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:09 pm

The detect bonus was added because without it, kensai would struggle a lot with stealthed foes, since they've no access to True Seeing.

I believe listen was chosen over spot so as not to infringe on -disguise mechanics.

As for the Complete Warrior kensai, yes, I'm familiar with that version, but it has nothing in common with the Arelith path. On the other hand, there is already a kensai class in NwN (i.e. the Weapon Master being referred to as kensai in D&D, coming from the Oriental Adventures supplement).

The Arelith kensai path has no relation whatsoever to core kensai (of either variety), as evidenced by the abilities assigned to it. The name was probably chosen as a nod to the Baldur's Gate path, but given that the quintessential kensai on Arelith is a heavily-armored weapon master, any relationship beyond that seem specious at best.
Last edited by Peppermint on Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Twily » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:11 pm

Too many Kensai types... :lol:
The Weapon Master version is definitely something, but it's not quite what I had in mind.

I'll work on drafting something new that touches on a style NWN's WeaponMaster Prestige can't really cover and throw it in the suggestion box later, just to see how that goes.

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by RedGiant » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:20 pm

Just to be clear...this changes existing kensai?!?
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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:20 pm

RedGiant wrote:Just to be clear...this changes existing kensai?!?
Yes.
:)

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by RedGiant » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:49 am

Rebuilds....grandfathering...?

Please?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12726
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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Terminal_Templari » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:35 am

I would prefer listen and would have done so if there was an innate bonus to listen, but alas... I chose spot mostly at random.

How DOES that work for established characters? Am I S.O.L. or is there a process/discussion for altering a decision made based on prior information?

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:35 am

Terminal_Templari wrote:I would prefer listen and would have done so if there was an innate bonus to listen, but alas... I chose spot mostly at random.

How DOES that work for established characters? Am I S.O.L. or is there a process/discussion for altering a decision made based on prior information?
How does what work for what?
:)

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by GwaiLo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:28 am

RedGiant wrote:Rebuilds....grandfathering...?

Please?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12726
Yes can this be an option please? Or can you have Kensai removed from a character?

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Re: On Kensai and Mundane Items

Post by Opustus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Terminal_Templari wrote:I would prefer listen and would have done so if there was an innate bonus to listen, but alas... I chose spot mostly at random.

How DOES that work for established characters? Am I S.O.L. or is there a process/discussion for altering a decision made based on prior information?
Would be kewl to RP a character with having the blind-feature fixed for, say, 10 IG months to justify the swap from Spot to Listen! Far tastier than having a character delevelled until point of skill dump for a redumpage and re-grinding.
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