Favoured Souls - A Bard's Path

[WanderingPoet]

Earlier this year Weavemasters and Favoured Souls were grandfathered. From my understanding, this is due to infinite spellcasting being a tad too powerful and made it difficult to add alternatives - there was a tendency to be really strong when saves were low and buff bots otherwise. While I agree that weavemasters have a high powerspike (with holding spells early, and infinite buffs, infinite fire arrow later), I find that having played a Favoured Soul for 8 months now that they don't have that same power level, and are comparable to Warlocks/Clerics/Bards.

So this post is to suggest that maybe we could have Favoured Souls back? Or if not as Favoured Soul, even as some path of Bard such as Swiftblade, Bladesinger or others.

Pros of the Favoured Soul Bard Path:
- Infinite Short duration buffs: Haste, Ethereal Visage, War Cry, Invisibility, Mass Haste, Wounding Whispers, Clair/Clair, displacement - allowing these to be more useful
- Infinite Long duration buffs: Attribute Buff spells, Greater magic weapon, Keen weapon, prot alignment, mage armor, see invis, improved invis, energy buffer, legend lore
- Infinite healing: Healing Circle, max Cure Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison/Disease, Remove Curse
- Infinite Raise Dead
- Infinite Greater dispel/counterspell

Cons:
- No Auto Quicken to shorten cooldowns and can't quicken level 2 spells until at least level 16 - meaning that until 16 every spell of 2 or higher has at least 1 round of cooldown
- Few actual spells/level - main focus will be buffs, or crowd control, difficult to get both
- Loses Bard Song

Ultimately the fact that they'll have cooldowns on every spell they cast until level 16 means it is difficult to make a 'control/damage' variant, and the self buffs suggest a spellsword. Since they rely heavily on their buffs they need to keep a high CL (and not go dipping heavily elsewhere) or else they can get dispelled and take entire minutes to recast their short term buffs (not doable in combat).

So below is a comparison to abilities the Bard, Warlock and Cleric have access to that match the pros of playing a Favoured Soul

Compare to Bard:
- Bard song gives 5-7 AC, 2AB, 3 Damage and a boost to skills
- Curse song does the reverse
- Same spell list, but limited uses (without cooldown) - can still cast mass haste before boss fights, and still have access to rest of spells immediately, similarly access to the other useful Bard spells the FS has (such as Ethereal Visage) when needed
- Can dip without as much fear of dispels, as bard song can't be dispelled and there they can more rapidly recast a lost spell
- Can cast several Healing circles in a row if needed

Compare to Warlock:
- Infinite haste for self/one other
- Infinite bard control spells while dealing damage
- Infinite invis
- Infinite Greater dispel/counterspell
- infinite energy buffer
- No Healing capability
- Also loses Bard Song

Compare to Cleric
- Mass Heal/Healing Circle, Heal for a much stronger single target heal, Resurrection, Regeneration
- High level summons
- Restoration/Greater Restoration
- Greater Magic Weapon, Darkfire, Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Divine Favour,
- Storm of Vengeance
- Epic spells/spell focuses

So in conclusion - compared to a cleric they don't heal as well and have no epic spells/spell focus and weaker summons; compared to a warlock their spellcasting is overall weaker as warlock also has infinite casting but without cooldowns and they deal damage; and compared to a bard they have more uses of spells at the cost of bardsong and the ability to cast spells quickly - so in a long dungeon crawl they can stay buffed longer but in short engagements they end up being weaker.

All together I think this shows that favoured souls are not any more powerful than the current state of warlocks, bards or clerics - they are just /different/.

And different means more options/flexibility for RP. More options is good. Discuss?

[Opustus]

A good post and I like the idea a lot! Not sure what the loremonkeys have to say about the path, it could be some Arelith-specific class, and I'm curious to hear the initial reasons for grandfathering the class.

There is a way to get Autoquicken: Clerk17/Bard13, for example, but I agree that wouldn't be overpowered either unless I'm missing something.

[Wytchee]

Barring obvious balance concerns, shouldn't Favored Soul be a cleric path? I know, having played a Wild Mage, that slotted spells can be replenished. Note that, no, I'm not advocating for the return of infinicasters in any form. I only ask because Bard seems grossly underwhelming when considering what a Favored Soul is supposed to represent.

[Miaou]

I would actually enjoy this class being added back. It was a nice bit of flavour and not overly strong like weavemasters were/are.

The only issue I have is the raise dead ability in link with the new death changes. Infi-raise dead is a bit much. Perhaps limit it to three a day/rest? Maybe even just one? I personally never saw this class as being overpowered, and was a unique concept to play for a divine champion of sorts that wasn't restricted to evil or LG like paladin and blackguard.

[WanderingPoet]

Barring obvious balance concerns, shouldn't Favored Soul be a cleric path? I know, having played a Wild Mage, that slotted spells can be replenished. Note that, no, I'm not advocating for the return of infinicasters in any form. I only ask because Bard seems grossly underwhelming when considering what a Favored Soul is supposed to represent.

We still have infinicasters - Warlocks

Part of what makes the Favoured Soul fun (at least for me, after 8 months of playing one!) is that the infinicasting as a bard lends to a sort of generalist priest. The very limitations of being a bard without autoquicken, with a late game quicken spell (and slow spell gain in general) is interesting to play. You won't be the strongest warrior (even fully buffed), nor will you be the best healer (druids/clerics will out heal you, even people with max Heal can outheal you). But overall they make great supportive characters - able to buff themselves up to to tank(assuming less than +3 weapons), or attack, or heal. You can do many things well, few things great - but you sure can do it for a long time.

I agree with infi-raise dead being a bit much, though I've rarely needed to revive that many people in one go. I'd recommend just tossing it on a cooldown like the rest of the spellcasting. Even toss it to a level 9 spell level so you end up with a 45 second cooldown between raises - where you can't cast any spell. That'd limit it to after-action raises mostly. If it was changed to a Swiftblade or similar then the Raise dead could even be dropped entirely - just leaving an infinite casting bard that loses its bard song in return for more spellcasting.

[Rabbid]

Barring obvious balance concerns, shouldn't Favored Soul be a cleric path? I know, having played a Wild Mage, that slotted spells can be replenished. Note that, no, I'm not advocating for the return of infinicasters in any form. I only ask because Bard seems grossly underwhelming when considering what a Favored Soul is supposed to represent.

We still have infinicasters - Warlocks

Part of what makes the Favoured Soul fun (at least for me, after 8 months of playing one!) is that the infinicasting as a bard lends to a sort of generalist priest. The very limitations of being a bard without autoquicken, with a late game quicken spell (and slow spell gain in general) is interesting to play. You won't be the strongest warrior (even fully buffed), nor will you be the best healer (druids/clerics will out heal you, even people with max Heal can outheal you). But overall they make great supportive characters - able to buff themselves up to to tank(assuming less than +3 weapons), or attack, or heal. You can do many things well, few things great - but you sure can do it for a long time.

I agree with infi-raise dead being a bit much, though I've rarely needed to revive that many people in one go. I'd recommend just tossing it on a cooldown like the rest of the spellcasting. Even toss it to a level 9 spell level so you end up with a 45 second cooldown between raises - where you can't cast any spell. That'd limit it to after-action raises mostly. If it was changed to a Swiftblade or similar then the Raise dead could even be dropped entirely - just leaving an infinite casting bard that loses its bard song in return for more spellcasting.

I agree with the raise dead, though that being said having a FS around lately in Cordor with the griefers killing every NPC in sight has been rather helpful for the lowbies trying to do deliveries.

Just sayin'.

[flower]

In. casters are evil. Even FS.

It imbalances dungeons. Suddenly you got guys able to toss haste all the time. How you make dungeons hard when there are so many infinite casters without it crippling classic casters? It is impossible.

And yeah, warlock are the same issue but i think they are kept IG as having tradition on arelith.

[Opustus]

If Haste and Mass haste are truly an issue (not saying they are), and I don't think there are other spells in the Bard spell list that would appropriate the mage buff role, they can be given the same treatment as Feylock's Haste. "Fey Pact Warlocks can cast haste an unlimited number of times on themselves, and it may only be active on one other target at a time."

[Ambigue]

I liked the concept of Favored Souls quite a bit.

But they were Too Convenient. Basically, they were perfect for endlessly loopgrinding. They could revive anyone who died and constantly empower the party with what are intended to be big, shorter-term buffs designed to change the flow of a single battle. Sure, in an individual battle, on paper, they might have been comparable to a bard of the same level, but over the course of two or three hours of straight combat? The favored soul was definitely better. As a 4-level skilldump dip (3 at levels 1-3 and 1 at level 30), it offered amazing value, with infinite, small-scale healing, basic useful buffs, access to all the mandatory have-them-or-lose-at-arelith skills and infinite revives.

I like the form offered in 3.5 DnD more, where they are the divine equivalent of a sorcerer.

[Rabbid]

I liked the concept of Favored Souls quite a bit.

But they were Too Convenient. Basically, they were perfect for endlessly loopgrinding. They could revive anyone who died and constantly empower the party with what are intended to be big, shorter-term buffs designed to change the flow of a single battle. Sure, in an individual battle, on paper, they might have been comparable to a bard of the same level, but over the course of two or three hours of straight combat? The favored soul was definitely better. As a 4-level skilldump dip (3 at levels 1-3 and 1 at level 30), it offered amazing value, with infinite, small-scale healing, basic useful buffs, access to all the mandatory have-them-or-lose-at-arelith skills and infinite revives.

I like the form offered in 3.5 DnD more, where they are the divine equivalent of a sorcerer.

Not to mention sorcs could do a 4 level dip in FS (1-3 and 27 or 30) to receive 0% ASF

[Astral]

I liked the concept of Favored Souls quite a bit.

But they were Too Convenient. Basically, they were perfect for endlessly loopgrinding. They could revive anyone who died and constantly empower the party with what are intended to be big, shorter-term buffs designed to change the flow of a single battle. Sure, in an individual battle, on paper, they might have been comparable to a bard of the same level, but over the course of two or three hours of straight combat? The favored soul was definitely better. As a 4-level skilldump dip (3 at levels 1-3 and 1 at level 30), it offered amazing value, with infinite, small-scale healing, basic useful buffs, access to all the mandatory have-them-or-lose-at-arelith skills and infinite revives.

I like the form offered in 3.5 DnD more, where they are the divine equivalent of a sorcerer.

Not to mention sorcs could do a 4 level dip in FS (1-3 and 27 or 30) to receive 0% ASF

I laughed loudly. thank you. <3

[Opustus]

If that's the dealbreaker, the 0% ASF of the Favored Soul can be removed, can't it?

[Nitro]

FS may not be a powerhouse by themselves, but as a party buffbot they act as an incredible force multiplier.

First, everyone is always hasted, all the time.
Second, everyone has improved invis, all the time.
Third, quickened clarity on demand.
Fourth, An area debuff spell, like dirge and/or warcry will be up for every fight unless you're with a group that rushes with the aforementioned haste.
Fifth, Infinite healing. Not the strongest healing, but the equivalent of everyone in the party having a free regeneration effect.
Sixth, Dying? What's that? Infinite raise dead at a touch makes the occasional party death trivial.

And sure, a lot of what a FS can do can also be achieved with a wand, but that makes for a very expensive wand usage per trip without the FS. And with Permanent Ethereal visage, they're almost guaranteed to live long enough to heal/res anyone else in the party, then buff them to go all over again.

I'd advocate for FS coming back, reworked as a proper cleric sublcass if it ever does come back, I'd rather not return to the infinicasting days of yore when monster saves crept ever upwards and infinite dispelling became the norm to counteract infinite buffing.

[Astral]

If that's the dealbreaker, the 0% ASF of the Favored Soul can be removed, can't it?

Then they will just walk around naked and get their friends to lvl 30 in no time. The class just doesn't fit the module. And how do you even justify casting ARCANE spells in armor on your FS. I know the devs approve of this but that doesn't make it any less of an exploit in my eyes.

[Opustus]

My edits are in red.

First, everyone is always hasted, all the time. Can be changed!
Second, everyone has improved invis, all the time. The concealment is turns/level, so suffice to say any devoted mage can keep the group concealed for a very long time; at least long enough till next rest.
Third, quickened clarity on demand. Isn't mindblank strictly better? Anyway, this can be given the same restrictions as Haste.
Fourth, An area debuff spell, like dirge and/or warcry will be up for every fight unless you're with a group that rushes with the aforementioned haste. And this is OP how? Dirge and Warcry are relatively lousy spells: you don't see people using the from wands and I've hardly ever used Dirge on any of my bards.
Fifth, Infinite healing. Not the strongest healing, but the equivalent of everyone in the party having a free regeneration effect. Seeing how easy it is to get Healer's Kits, I find this a bit moot. Besides, as the OP explains, free heals that aren't too OP are one facet of the class and a major part of its flavour.
Sixth, Dying? What's that? Infinite raise dead at a touch makes the occasional party death trivial.It's already been suggested that this be restricted.

The point is that every problem people seem to have with the Path so far can be easily fixed if necessary. I agree with the OP's opinion that the class is fun and opens up a new way to play the game both mechanically and in terms of RP. I'm sure many would love the play it even if it turned out a tad underpowered.

[Opustus]

If that's the dealbreaker, the 0% ASF of the Favored Soul can be removed, can't it?

Then they will just walk around naked and get their friends to lvl 30 in no time. The class just doesn't fit the module. And how do you even justify casting ARCANE spells in armor on your FS. I know the devs approve of this but that doesn't make it any less of an exploit in my eyes.

Sorry, Astral, I don't understand your point at all. How does FS walking around naked get other people to level 30? About casting arcane spells in armor: this is exactly what I suggested that can be removed if need be, hence not needing any justification. If you mean that how can casting any arcane spells at all as FS be justified, 1) the OP has suggested that the Path doesn't need to be Favoured Soul anymore, but made into something else, or 2) just as before, we just disregard the fact that the spells are mechanically arcane and pretend they're divine, simple as that.

[flower]

You are wrong, NPCs often spam dispells and invis purges. Infinite caster will immedietly re část it where wizard is done.

[Astral]

Sorry, Astral, I don't understand your point at all. How does FS walking around naked get other people to level 30? by simply getting to lvl 10 and then any party is perma-hasted indefinitely. This, effectively makes any party go to a much harder place than they should, earing 10+ exp more than they should, per kill. That's a game breaker if I've ever seen one. Don't get me wrong, I'm also grandfathering a lvl 30 FS but that is the whole point - He's already lvl 30 and cannot really farm anyone efficiently even if I wanted so it's not a game breaker anymore. I love the class's general theme and the multiclassing options are practically endless but it had to go eventually.
About casting arcane spells in armor: this is exactly what I suggested that can be removed if need be, hence not needing any justification. If you mean that how can casting any arcane spells at all as FS be justified, 1) the OP has suggested that the Path doesn't need to be Favoured Soul anymore, but made into something else, or 2) just as before, we just disregard the fact that the spells are mechanically arcane and pretend they're divine, simple as that. if we're talking about a different and new path with a different name then I don't have any thing to say about this.

[Xanos950]

Or instead, let's cease the infinite casting stuff an make Favoured Souls like they're supposed to be in lore.

A FS is basically just somebody with sorcerer spell slots but with the divine cleric spell list, that's how they're across some dnd editions.

Basically a sorcerer but instead of arcane spells, he's got divine spells.

[Cortex]

With the possibility of haks so close, it might be best to wait until then.

[WanderingPoet]

FS may not be a powerhouse by themselves, but as a party buffbot they act as an incredible force multiplier.
And sure, a lot of what a FS can do can also be achieved with a wand, but that makes for a very expensive wand usage per trip without the FS. And with Permanent Ethereal visage, they're almost guaranteed to live long enough to heal/res anyone else in the party, then buff them to go all over again.

Keep in mind that Ethereal Visage is 20/+3 - many epic level enemies actually pierce it, and most PCs can pierce it. Improved invis is also beaten pretty well by Blind fight, which many foes also have. Also keep in mind that an extended Ethereal Visage means you can't cast spells for 5 rounds if it goes down in combat - plus 3 rounds per haste casting, plus 5 rounds per extended (or 4 for not) improved invis - not to mention the other short term buffs lost when you get dispelled. You can stand around buffing all day, but most of your ally buffs are cheaply wandable/potionable leaving haste/imp invis as the only two extra powerful features of the class.

In regards to Dirge/Warcry - keep in mind that if you cast warcry at level 30 you have a 30 round spell that has a 5 round cooldown that /might/ fear - you cast that at the start of battle? No mass haste, no healing, no dirge for 5 rounds of combat. Dirge has a DC in enchantment. Feylocks can already do this infinitely and they're more likely to have high CHA and enchantment focuses without having a cooldown on the rest of the enchantment spells (hold monster will have a 3 round cooldown for a FS). You'd be sacrificing combat ability for a spell that really doesn't do all that much.

You are wrong, NPCs often spam dispells and invis purges. Infinite caster will immedietly re část it where wizard is done.

They do, yes - but keep in mind that wizards also get infinite spells like see invis, endure elements and have more they can do when they're dispelled... Like Evocation/Enchantment/etc spells. If invis purge/dispels hit a FS's spells they can recast them but it takes a while - so no 'immediately recast'. Plus their spell list is much shorter. For haste, warlocks and PDK can already give people infinite haste; which is powerful but not incredibly so. If perma haste was so powerful then we'd see more kensai, feylocks and PDK around. Infinite spells helps for long term fights but in the short term (battles) it is actually weaker to have rounds of cooldowns.

...And wizards can rest! They can memorize 5 castings of extended mass haste (5 extended mass haste at level 30 would be 30 minutes of haste) and haste an entire party for most of a dungeon too - if they rest every 30 minutes (6 hours IG) then they can mass haste indefinitely.

In regards to the FS dips - "Arcane Spell Failure for Armor and Shields is reduced by 20% for pure-class Warlocks, or multi-class Warlocks with at least 6 levels in the class" - could make it the same for FS. You need at least 6 levels to get the bonus, or even a majority of levels. Weaken the FS raise dead ability and all you end up with is a class you can dip into for mage armour and protection from evil (both cheaply wandable) and normal bard skills. At the cost of still having to take it at first level to get the path (which means that you need to take a level later to max tumble/umd) - and you will kill your CL unless you have another caster class, thus weaken wands. So a sorc with 6 levels of bard? 24 CL sorc, they're sacrificing being able to be dispelled easily for less ASF - handy for a true flame but then they have to sacrifice more if they want 3 levels of paladin too - there are always 'more powerful' combinations, they can be limited.

The strongest benefits of the FS - such as hasting, healing and buffing are already doable by warlocks/wizards/clerics and things like mass haste are only really needed when you're fighting bosses - they don't provide huge value against small mobs. Bards can save the same buffs for boss fights /and/ use bard song for a huge boost to allies for a boss fight even if they can't buff you the same way for the easy fights.

If a concern is endless loopgrinding - let the grinders grind, let the people that want to play a fun class play the fun class; what is wrong with either? In the end its a class that lets people play different from other classes while not being any stronger than its counterparts - a nice flavour for some players. Worrying about grinders just doesn't strike me as a reason to block a class - if people want to grind they'll find a way, let people have their fun

[Astral]

If a concern is endless loopgrinding - let the grinders grind, let the people that want to play a fun class play the fun class; what is wrong with either? In the end its a class that lets people play different from other classes while not being any stronger than its counterparts - a nice flavour for some players. Worrying about grinders just doesn't strike me as a reason to block a class - if people want to grind they'll find a way, let people have their fun

Worrying about grinders is a very valid reason to block a class, actually.

[WanderingPoet]

If a concern is endless loopgrinding - let the grinders grind, let the people that want to play a fun class play the fun class; what is wrong with either? In the end its a class that lets people play different from other classes while not being any stronger than its counterparts - a nice flavour for some players. Worrying about grinders just doesn't strike me as a reason to block a class - if people want to grind they'll find a way, let people have their fun

Worrying about grinders is a very valid reason to block a class, actually.

I disagree only in that if people want to grind, they're going to grind no matter what we have. Even if we only had a commoner class with no feats - some people would find a way to grind levels if they is what they want to do! Just like people find ways to RP even when its difficult, people find ways to have their fun if they want to. If people want perma haste badly enough they'll pair up with a warlock, or a PDK and get that perma haste. People can already get to level 30 in a month, FS isn't going to get them there much faster than that. Blocking everyone from a class just because some people may use it in a way that some other people may dislike doesn't strike me as a good reason; otherwise we'd ban WM for being strong in PvP and cleric for making death too easy to get back from, and bard for being too strong in PvE, and rogues for being able to eavesdrop on conversations and break into quarters - there are always some aspects of a class some people don't like!

[gilescorey]

Or instead, let's cease the infinite casting stuff an make Favoured Souls like they're supposed to be in lore.

A FS is basically just somebody with sorcerer spell slots but with the divine cleric spell list, that's how they're across some dnd editions.

Basically a sorcerer but instead of arcane spells, he's got divine spells.

With the possibility of haks so close, it might be best to wait until then.

when nobody else even needs to post anymore

[Ambigue]

I disagree only in that if people want to grind, they're going to grind no matter what we have. Even if we only had a commoner class with no feats - some people would find a way to grind levels if they is what they want to do! Just like people find ways to RP even when its difficult, people find ways to have their fun if they want to. If people want perma haste badly enough they'll pair up with a warlock, or a PDK and get that perma haste. People can already get to level 30 in a month, FS isn't going to get them there much faster than that. Blocking everyone from a class just because some people may use it in a way that some other people may dislike doesn't strike me as a good reason; otherwise we'd ban WM for being strong in PvP and cleric for making death too easy to get back from, and bard for being too strong in PvE, and rogues for being able to eavesdrop on conversations and break into quarters - there are always some aspects of a class some people don't like!

Grinding ain't evil. I don't care if folks want to grind. I grind sometimes. That's not the issue.

The issue was that it was the objectively better choice in most situations than the standard bard. Not always. Not in every situation. But it gave you a number of useful tools and required a minimal amount of fuss, investment, or resource usage on the part of the player.

Sure, wizards can rest to get their spells back! But resting requires frequent stops during a grind. It slows things down. Dispels are a genuine problem because you can't always rest whenever it suits you. Favored Souls had to worry about dispells during the course of the battle, but it was never a resource problem for them, just a timing problem.

Sure, healing kits and wands are things that are useful! But they cost money. You have to go and find them. Or make them. They are a constant drain on your resources. You can run out mid-adventure if they aren't managed correctly. Favored Soul eliminated this inconvenience.

Sure, some of their spells fell off in effectiveness at epic levels! But they made getting there much easier. I don't know if they made it considerably faster, but they made it much easier to do quickly. You never have to stop. You never have to buy anything other than armor and weapons. You never run out of anything. You had to stop to rest infrequently and often could get enough food and water during the course of adventure to keep your hunger and thirst meters in the black. As long as the favored soul was alive at the end of the battle, he could revive, heal, and rebuff the entire party with in a few minutes without any real consequences to the party beyond some small XP loss.

And that's a bit much when taken all together. You can't balance your mobs with the idea that fighting them will involve the adventurers making choices about how to best use a limited number of resources, resources that dwindle the longer the adventurer's slog on without a rest. And that can lead to a lot of subtle and far-reaching changes in mob and dungeon design, XP gain, that only further reinforces the absolute need to have this class available in order to 'win at arelith' or whatever. It's not good in the long run.