Monk Balancing

[Sab1]

How it stands right now the kama wielding monk will always have a huge advantage over unarmed or quarterstaff. You get 2 weapons and the benefit of enchanted/magical glove item. Yes you need dual welding feats but as many monks dip to fighter, its usually not an issue gathering the feats.

Where unarmed you hand slot is for your weapon and that's it. If the server had bucklers useable by anyone it wouldn't be so bad. As the unarmed monk could get small boon from strapping a really small shield to their arm.

So looking for idea, suggestions. opinons on this. Is there need for change, is there ways to even things out a bit. etc...

Like creating paths at startup for monks, like the ranger paths.

[WhiskeyGuy]

I thought that quarterstaffs were not only finessable, but two-sided weapons now.

[Ambigue]

Here are some ideas that came up:

1) Using the -stream commands to give unarmed strikes additional elemental damage

2) Making a monk path that thematically mirrors the "Vow of Poverty" feat chain from the Book of Exalted Deeds; essentially, lots of interesting buffs in exchange for hard-core poverty, some of which only benefit unarmed strike.

3) A simple scripted mechanical boost to their AC when fighting unarmed (or if using Parry maybe)

[Peppermint]

It's worth noting that monk abilities (e.g. stunning fist) aren't available when using a weapon. Quarterstaff monks also benefit from +2 AB.

Quarterstaff = Best DPS against high AC opponents. Also disarms.
Kamas = Best DPS against low AC opponents.
Unarmed = Lower DPS, but enables stuns.

[Cortex]

Unarmed is the tankiest of the lot.

[Ambigue]

Unarmed = Lower DPS, but enables stuns.

That's true, but kind of misses the point.

Unarmed monks get lower dps, access to a limited pool of occasionally-useful stunning attacks, AND one less enchanted item slot.

One could argue that the proper thing to do, in that case, would to simply not play unarmed monks or, if you do so, accept that it's always gonna be a sub-optimal version of what is already a sub-optimal class.

However, fighting effectively unarmed is one of the draws of the class. Why not consider making that just as fun and effective as fighting with a weapon?

[gilescorey]

Unarmed monks (played by somebody who knows what they're doing) are the strongest build on the server, they're literally invulnerable. Of all, possible things that might need buffed they are the very last one.

[Ambigue]

Unarmed monks (played by somebody who knows what they're doing) are the strongest build on the server, they're literally invulnerable. Of all, possible things that might need buffed they are the very last one.

How?

I ain't an expert on the intricacies of the underlying mechanics when it comes specifically to Arelith, but what build allows a character with one less slot for tweaking stats be more powerful than one that has access to that slot?

And is this one of those things where the build only comes together when you hit level 30?

[Cortex]

Broken movement speed, epic dodge on top of AC that requires true strike for reliable hits (which they can just zoom away from at the speed of sound), 30 SR makes them immune to scrolls, good saves across the board, mind-immunity, improved evasion, 400-500s HP. List goes on.

Their weakness is that they get only 40 or so AB without Divine Power scrolls, but that doesn't stop them from slowly but surely killing you.

[Trunx]

And the fact that Stunning Fist is one of the best special abilities in the game. Even if your opponent has a great natural fortitude save (which is far from a given), you get 16-23 tries to bait 1s with True Strike, which is usually a death sentence when it works. Also, you can use Empty Body and invis purge to get 50% concealment while your opponent has no concealment; monk speed lets you re-apply invis purge whenever someone tries to re-apply II while already under the IP radius.

For extra cheese, run away, rest, and keep trying until Stunning Fist works. It's not like anyone can stop you from doing that.

[gilescorey]

How?

Simply because they can't die unless the player behind them makes a mistake.

Fighting them is profoundly unfun because it's not really possible or conventional; they're immune to any sort of CC due to their mind immunity, they have enough Reflex to laugh in the face at the few Bigby's that aren't blocked by aforementioned mind immunity. When geared by somebody with a clue, Fortitude too. Owl's Insight scrolls make getting enough WIS a non-factor, you can just gear for DEX/CON and have the normal amount of HP, meaning they won't explode to any idiot with a Timestop scroll or a g. ruin. Most of your class levels are on a d8, too, because why not.

You can't ever catch them or pin them down because they're so hilariously fast they can literally run circles around you, and even if you somehow manage to do so it's not like they're made of paper. Also, they can just stealth and easily have the skill points to take it, so if you don't have a True Sight scroll they have another method of beating you up.

Basically you can just force a flurry war, one you'll eventually win because you have epic dodge and plenty of AC, or Stunning Fist people who are either:
A. Bad and don't have enough Fortitude save to survive
B. Roll a 1 and then watch as you slowly pummel them to death with your 5d6 sneak damage.

Succinctly, they excel at wars of attrition and have more than enough tools in their box to force one. At least they're kind of irritating to level.

[Ambigue]

Broken movement speed, epic dodge on top of AC that requires true strike for reliable hits (which they can just zoom away from at the speed of sound), 30 SR makes them immune to scrolls, good saves across the board, mind-immunity, improved evasion, 400-500s HP. List goes on.

Their weakness is that they get only 40 or so AB without Divine Power scrolls, but that doesn't stop them from slowly but surely killing you.

Ugh.

I honestly don't care how powerful a level 30 monk is in PvP. I am never going to see level 30. Ever. And if the most important thing about class balance is "how tough will the most optimized build be at level 30", then even discussing this is a waste of everyone's time.

Is a level 10 monk an invincible, but slow-paced killing machine? Is a level 15 monk? Does playing at those levels mean the lack of an enchanted item slot is missed? Does the player experience at those levels not matter?

And, if they don't, why not just boost everyone to level 30 from the get go? You can ignore those issues completely, then.

[Sab1]

Most of what's been listed though seems true for any monk.

[Cortex]

Reworking an entire base class is far more work than redesigning a dungeon, adding a new path/race/item, or even an entire settlement.

@Sab1, dual wield monks have a lot less monk levels, they lack mind immunity, a lot of the speed, AC, and fortitude.

[gilescorey]

Ugh.

I honestly don't care how powerful a level 30 monk is in PvP. I am never going to see level 30. Ever. And if the most important thing about class balance is "how tough will the most optimized build be at level 30", then even discussing this is a waste of everyone's time.

Is a level 10 monk an invincible, but slow-paced killing machine? Is a level 15 monk? Does playing at those levels mean the lack of an enchanted item slot is missed? Does the player experience at those levels not matter?

And, if they don't, why not just boost everyone to level 30 from the get go? You can ignore those issues completely, then.

Sure it does. But nuance is necessary, because if you buff level ten monks to have an easier time levelling, you have to make sure this buff doesn't make that thing you don't care about imbalanced at 30.(arguably even more so than it already is)

You can't just ignore things like that and excuse it as useless because you don't personally care about it, or you'll never see it -- after all, you aren't the only person on the server.

It's not as if pre-30 monks are weak anyways. In a party they make pretty good -guards for squishier party members, and everyone likes a stunning fisted enemy mage better than one who's casting spells at them. Solo they're kind of lame, but that goes for anybody with a decent DEX score. Even so, they're probably better than other DEXxers due to SR and speed letting them get out of bad situations easily.

Edit:

Most of what's been listed though seems true for any monk.

Not really. When built well, non-fist monks hardly have any monk levels at all; they're just a 3 or 6 dip onto a rogue build that uses kamas or a quarterstaff, and they play like stronger rogues with a few extra cookies.

[Sab1]

Not talking a total rework. I do think paths at startup like mages, rangers etc might be a good idea.

But mostly a look at the main advantage any weapon using monk gets, the bonus their hand slot gives them. It would be nice if a buckler could be made, or something like that. Not talking rework monk . Only there might be small things out there.

Also watch monks lately, kensai is really popular making monk speed not so much of a big deal.

[Cortex]

How does kensai help vs monks exactly?

If the monk uses a haste wand, they're a lot faster than the kensai, and the kensai has no UMD or any bit of hope to catch the monk with true strike or time stop, or the monk can just run out of line of sight and stealth because no True Seeing, unless the monk is actually AFK there's no way a kensai has a chance.

[Ambigue]

Sure it does. But nuance is necessary, because if you buff level ten monks to have an easier time levelling, you have to make sure this buff doesn't make that thing you don't care about imbalanced at 30.(arguably even more so than it already is)

Yes. Which is why you use smaller, non-scaling improvements that are superseded or made irrelevant by higher level equipment and abilities. They don't add much, if anything, to high level play, but make the task of getting there more fun. These kinds of mechanics are used frequently in lots of game systems. There's no reason to dismiss them out-of-hand without even a short discussion on proper implementation. But, that's what's happening. And that's frustrating.

You can't just ignore things like that and excuse it as useless because you don't personally care about it, or you'll never see it -- after all, you aren't the only person on the server.

That was super-presumptuous, man. Just because I don't care about how OP certain level 30 character are after they've optimized their builds and cast a dozen buffing spells on themselves for a PVP fight, doesn't mean I think level 30 is irrelevant. That doesn't' mean I think that experience of other players when they get there is unimportant. But I can't speak to it. I can't offer them anything. It's not that they don't matter, it's that I'm not presumptuous enough to tell them what their experience should be like.

By the same token, if the level 30 experience is all that matters, then there's no room in the conversation for me, either. So there's no point in talking about my experiences. If there's no point in talking my experiences, then why even have a feedback thread, right?

[gilescorey]

Yes. Which is why you use smaller, non-scaling improvements that are superseded or made irrelevant by higher level equipment and abilities. They don't add much, if anything, to high level play, but make the task of getting there more fun. These kinds of mechanics are used frequently in lots of game systems. There's no reason to dismiss them out-of-hand without even a short discussion on proper implementation. But, that's what's happening. And that's frustrating.

Like what? You ask how unarmed monks are strong, you get an answer, you don't like this answer because it's level 30 PVP instead of [insert unknown standard here]. You haven't suggested anything. How can I dismiss what you're saying out of hand if you aren't saying anything beyond the vague?

That was super-presumptuous, man. Just because I don't care about how OP certain level 30 character are after they've optimized their builds and cast a dozen buffing spells on themselves for a PVP fight, doesn't mean I think level 30 is irrelevant. That doesn't' mean I think that experience of other players when they get there is unimportant. But I can't speak to it. I can't offer them anything. It's not that they don't matter, it's that I'm not presumptuous enough to tell them what their experience should be like.


By the same token, if the level 30 experience is all that matters, then there's no room in the conversation for me, either. So there's no point in talking about my experiences. If there's no point in talking my experiences, then why even have a feedback thread, right?

I don't understand why you're acting as if I've dismissed, disparaged or whatevered anything you've said, but surely you can understand that prefacing anything with "ugh" does give an air of apathy and thusly people may respond accordingly?

You said that unarmed monks were "suboptimal," and when others say "actually no that's not true" you say you feel dismissed and that other people are being presumptuous. Fighting unarmed is viable at all stages of the game, and as I mentioned in a prior post it's probably easier to do dungeons and adventure around the module as a fist monk than any sort of other DEX build. That does include kama/quarterstaff monks?

Further, nobody said that the "level thirty experience is all that matters," either directly or indirectly. If that's how you feel then you've certainly misinterpreted what I've said, and while I can't speak for Cortex I do know him well enough to say that's very likely not what he meant either.

[yellowcateyes]

An (unoptimized) unarmed monk was the very first character I played on Arelith, and he was a fun and rewarding experience from level three to thirty.

I'd play one again, if I didn't mind repeating old experiences. I don't think monks need any cookies or boosts, even in the early leveling process. They're pretty good.

[Astral]

An (unoptimized) unarmed monk was the very first character I played on Arelith, and he was a fun and rewarding experience from level three to thirty.

I'd play one again, if I didn't mind repeating old experiences. I don't think monks need any cookies or boosts, even in the early leveling process. They're pretty good.

That's exactly my exparience as well. I played a far-from-optimal half-elf tiefling monk with circle kick (my first monk, don't take this feat ever) and at some point I felt like I cant die unless I die intentionally to save someone or something like that. Soloing is slooooow but pretty much same math - you don't have to die, you can zoom out of anything.

[Ambigue]

I suppose there's a lot I could say in response to all this, but it wouldn't be constructive in the long run, even if it might feel like it would clear up some frustration.

Basically:

Unarmed monks seem to miss out compared to other monk builds. The reason why was stated. Suggestions on how to adjust for this were presented.

The immediate response was, essentially, "They are OP at 30 so don't bother".

So I won't. Sorry for any frustration or annoyance I may have caused. I can see that there are likely better uses of my time then derailing this further. Hopefully, we can get back on topic.

[Baron Saturday]

How it stands right now the kama wielding monk will always have a huge advantage over unarmed or quarterstaff. You get 2 weapons and the benefit of enchanted/magical glove item. Yes you need dual welding feats but as many monks dip to fighter, its usually not an issue gathering the feats.

Where unarmed you hand slot is for your weapon and that's it. If the server had bucklers useable by anyone it wouldn't be so bad. As the unarmed monk could get small boon from strapping a really small shield to their arm.

So looking for idea, suggestions. opinons on this. Is there need for change, is there ways to even things out a bit. etc...

Like creating paths at startup for monks, like the ranger paths.

Okay, getting back to the original post: I disagree with the premise that kama monks are flat-out superior.

Kama v. Quarterstaff: Dual kama monks will have 2 less AB than quarterstaff monks, which is fairly relevant given the (relatively) low ABs of monks. Dual kama monks have the ability to use Flurry, which quarterstaff monks cannot, but do so with a loss of ANOTHER -2 AB. This is why, as Peppermint stated earlier, dual kama monks will have the best DPS against low AC enemies, while quarterstaff monks will perform better against high AC enemies. Generally, I feel like these two are fairly equal.

Kama v. Unarmed: A dual kama monk will enjoy 2 more APR than an unarmed monk, at a loss of 2 AB. A kama monk will also have +1 to two stats and +2 to several skills, from the glove slot. However, a dual kama monk also loses deflect arrows, stunning fist, and monk unarmed damage. Deflect arrows is basically epic dodge against ranged opponents, stunning fist can be very powerful against low fort enemies, and monk unarmed damage goes a long way towards making up for the lesser APR: Starting at level 16, an unarmed monk would do 10.5 base damage, while a kama monk does 3.5. Again, these trade-offs feel reasonably balanced to me.

I think that the addition of masterly damask quarterstaves and adamantine knuckles has pretty much leveled the playing field between the various monk armaments.

My only real quibble with monk is the lack of uncanny dodge, but since you'll want rogue or SD levels for edodge anyhow, it's not terribly relevant.

[Peppermint]

It's true that a dual-kama monk is better than an unarmed monk at low levels. This is just a natural side effect of the fact that monks have scaling unarmed damage -- but their kama damage does not scale. (Enchantments aside, though gloves get those, too.)

I can't think of a simple fix for that, because that fact is built intrinsically into the core mechanics. If you can think of one, by all means make a proposal, but bluntly speaking, this discussion isn't going to go anywhere unless someone does. Bear in mind that unarmed monks are already very strong; any buff that also improves their end game is an obvious no go.

At any rate, not every class has the same power curve, and monks aren't really unique in that regard. Bards and Arcane Archers are weak early, but scale hard late. Fighters progress more smoothly than Barbarians, which are strong very early and very late, but struggle in mid-levels. Kensai are strong early, but fall off very hard late. So on and so forth.

[Sab1]

How does kensai help vs monks exactly?

If the monk uses a haste wand, they're a lot faster than the kensai, and the kensai has no UMD or any bit of hope to catch the monk with true strike or time stop, or the monk can just run out of line of sight and stealth because no True Seeing, unless the monk is actually AFK there's no way a kensai has a chance.

You would have to ask the kensai monks about. But they are out there.

Again not saying the entire Monk class need a boosts, rework , or that the class sucks. I will always think that it would be nice if monks had path selection option at creation. Like QS monk path that gain this and this but lose blah blah or can't take weapon focus in anything else. I was just tossing out about unarmed lose the hand slot that other monks get. If any thing could make up a little of the difference.