Spellsword

[CragOrion]

Its nice to see this come out

However

Spellsword seems to me like something that should be available to sorcerers

[Iceborn]

I'm not against them being available to sorcerers, but I don't know how they could be remotely any balanced considering the other charisma-based classes and combinations that they could take.

Though there's one thing that sort of bothers me...
Blocking conjuration doesn't make any sense to me. I'm okay with them "relying on themselves", but that should be absolute - meaning, they should have all summoning spells blocked individually, and not conjuration as a school. After all, this deprives them to use the basic, standard and always-loved mage armor, but they are perfectly fine to take Epic Mage Armor? It's an epic spell, yes, but it's a conjuration-based epic spell.

And they probably should get martial weapon proficiency. That'd be nice.

[gilescorey]

Spellsword-Sorcerer/Paladin

Welcome to cheese hell.

[-XXX-]

Oh wait, this suggestion was not a prelude towards the ultimate removal of Paladins as redundant niche class nobody wants and/or needs to exist?!

[Kirito]

Its nice to see this come out
However
Spellsword seems to me like something that should be available to sorcerers

I would be open to it being available to sorcerers... i'm not open to change the path to be based on CHA for them because of

Spellsword-Sorcerer/Paladin
Welcome to cheese hell.

Though there's one thing that sort of bothers me...
Blocking conjuration doesn't make any sense to me. I'm okay with them "relying on themselves", but that should be absolute - meaning, they should have all summoning spells blocked individually, and not conjuration as a school. After all, this deprives them to use the basic, standard and always-loved mage armor, but they are perfectly fine to take Epic Mage Armor? It's an epic spell, yes, but it's a conjuration-based epic spell.

This is being looked at and considered but it will be a little while before anything changes.
With regards to losing mage armour... the bonus AC by INT could be considered a different form of mage armour, you are directly manipulating the weave to protect yourself

And they probably should get martial weapon proficiency. That'd be nice.

I like the idea

[Rwby]

Can't we just have Spellsword Sorcerers with Charisma based, but forbid them from taking levels in Blackguard or Paladin?

[Kirito]

Can't we just have Spellsword Sorcerers with Charisma based, but forbid them from taking levels in Blackguard or Paladin?

Or cleric or RDD?

[gilescorey]

Oh wait, this suggestion was not a prelude towards the ultimate removal of Paladins as redundant niche class nobody wants and/or needs to exist?!

it's time to stop posting

[-XXX-]

That was uncalled for *cries in the corner*

[I hope you got money]

I dislike just about every suggestion made here!

-Available to sorcerers will make it a sorcerer kit (assuming its a cha based bonus) because paladin saves, ac and damage bonus will make it way better then anything you can do as a wizard.

-while mage armor is a good spell for this class, its not really necessary and the short lived "summons" a wizard with this path can still cast (persistent blade and the armored horror later on) i think are flavorful for the kit and are so short lived no regular wizard would ever use them.

-giving them martial weapons from the start isn't all that bad, but again we are talking about wizards going beyond their normal abilities, and I think that feats or cross classing should represent that.



Anyways, I'm about 3 hours in on my spell sword, and so far it seems really solid. While its certainly rough going early on I think that is a good thing, because it looks to be really good later and the slow start will weed out quite a few making it a rarer class.

[I hope you got money]

One thing i would do, and this is based on another conversation, is give the spell sword path +3 cl against dispel. A battle cleric that gets dispelled is going to have to take a few moments to rebuff, most spell sword builds I can think of (with the exception being a still spell build) are just dead.

addon, you can also make it so that the cl +3 vs dispel goes away if they are wearing armor.

[Jagel]

Could a sorc spell sword path be keyed off something else? Certain skills/skill ranks? Certain feats?

[Liareth]

-Available to sorcerers will make it a sorcerer kit (assuming its a cha based bonus) because paladin saves, ac and damage bonus will make it way better then anything you can do as a wizard.

Why not just disable paladin bonuses (saved / divine might / divine shield) if you take the path? That seems like it would solve all paladin balance issues.

[WanderingPoet]

Why not just disable paladin bonuses (saved / divine might / divine shield) if you take the path? That seems like it would solve all paladin balance issues.

That or block Divine classes/magic in general as the character focuses on weaving arcane more closely. Kind of like how Kensai lose all magic.

That'd block Rangers/druids so no naturey spellswords, and paladins/clerics so no divine power/divine might/divine shield/divine grace. This would also block scrolls which limit use of divine power/favor etc as well.

And not let the path be taken if they have divine levels, of course.

[Rwby]

Why not just disable paladin bonuses (saved / divine might / divine shield) if you take the path? That seems like it would solve all paladin balance issues.

That or block Divine classes/magic in general as the character focuses on weaving arcane more closely. Kind of like how Kensai lose all magic.

That'd block Rangers/druids so no naturey spellswords, and paladins/clerics so no divine power/divine might/divine shield/divine grace. This would also block scrolls which limit use of divine power/favor etc as well.

And not let the path be taken if they have divine levels, of course.

That's basically what I suggested!

[Tetra]

Sorcerer is one thing but don't block ranger for wizard spellswords... That's too useful a combination and it's not overpowered. Rangers on arelith aren't necessarily divine classes either.

I was wondering last night about Arcane Archer spell swords. Effective? Overpowered or underpowered? Don't do it?

[Kirito]

Sorcerer is one thing but don't block ranger for wizard spellswords... That's too useful a combination and it's not overpowered. Rangers on arelith aren't necessarily divine classes either.

I was wondering last night about Arcane Archer spell swords. Effective? Overpowered or underpowered? Don't do it?

The damage bonus won't stack so not an issue, probably a weaker pairing if anything

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

...Why not just make the bonuses still based on intelligence? Arelith's gift system is more than generous enough for a two-stat dominant mage build to not strain itself and still make significant gains. My own sorcerer/true flame started with a 19 charisma and an 18 intelligence, and a 9 in wisdom and an 8 in dex. Dexterity becomes expendable in the face of cat's grace + full plate and tower shield, and then you're adding int as a dodge bonus. Wis 9 doesn't hurt that much since you're an arcane caster.

[Peppermint]

Because then you don't have the points for strength, making your character bloody useless.

And besides, it makes zero sense. Why would a sorcerer benefit from intelligence with respect to arcane magic?

[The Guy everyone thinks is Memelord]

Can't we just have Spellsword Sorcerers with Charisma based, but forbid them from taking levels in Blackguard or Paladin?

Or cleric or RDD?

or RDD?

Why ban them from taking a subpar class
:thinking emoji:

That said -- with regards to making it available to Sorcerer, I'd personally say that first we should evaluate whether the path itself is going to stick around (and more importantly, whether it should be revised).

Personally, I just don't know that sacrificing two entire schools (one, as Iceborn pointed out, including a slew of buffs; the other doubtlessly being either Evocation (making you a Battlecleric with lower AB and no SoV equivalent) or Necromanceries (thus meaning you're a meme that can't use Raise Dead scrolls or Any form of Magical Healing (see: worse battlecleric))) is really worth debating to turn into a unilateral path for Arcane classes before balancing it.

[Peppermint]

Raise Dead and healing spells are conjuration, not necromancy. Moreover, they're explicitly not blocked for Spellswords.

[Tetra]

.

[The Guy everyone thinks is Memelord]

Well -- the Raise Dead was news; although I was mostly referring to Greater Restoration as the go-to with Conjuration being blocked when I mentioned "no access to magical healing".

Healing spells are specifically excluded from the Conjuration ban then? That feels like something that'd probably be well placed added to the class notes!

[Lorkas]

Well -- the Raise Dead was news; although I was mostly referring to Greater Restoration as the go-to with Conjuration being blocked when I mentioned "no access to magical healing".

Healing spells are specifically excluded from the Conjuration ban then? That feels like something that'd probably be well placed added to the class notes!

Greater Restoration is actually necromancy (despite the rest of the restoration line, and indeed most of the healing spells in the game, being conjuration).

I'm not sure why. In the Player's Handbook, it's Conjuration (Healing). It isn't marked as a bug on the NWN wiki though, despite most of the other mis-schooled spells being marked as such.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Because then you don't have the points for strength, making your character bloody useless.

And besides, it makes zero sense. Why would a sorcerer benefit from intelligence with respect to arcane magic?

1: We acknowledge that spellswords, optimally, will multiclass a 27/3, since there is no penalty for such and whether wiz or sorc they're going to want to take advantage of armor. In fact, looking at the bonus list, unless they desperately want +1 ab more, they'll probably go 23/4/3.

2: We therefore acknowledge, in the pursuit of optimization, that this secondary class is most likely bard (medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency, umd, discipline) or fighter (heavy armor proficiency, discipline). If the second class is bard, they still need to get heavy armor from somewhere. If it's fighter, then 3 rogue will round out the build and they'll be able to get epic weapon specialization, too.

3: Getting strength is pretty easy if your kit demands it when you can cast 9th level spells.

Re making sense: Because spell-swords aren't using their magic to increase their AC, they're using their wits to outsmart their opponents and gain dodge ac by predicting what they're going to do. Being likeable/pretty doesn't help with that. When a spellsword uses their magic to increase their ac, typically they cast mage armor, or edit: Cat's Grace.


Finally- this entire line of thought is assuming that spellswords are actually going to use the class to main melee, rather than using the class to get some neat perks- perks that can be stacked with armor so that they have another option besides spamming a rod of frost to keep their spells for moments when it counts, and still primarily being casters.