Spellsword

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Peppermint
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Peppermint » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:08 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:3: Getting strength is pretty easy if your kit demands it when you can cast 9th level spells.
How?

Post-itemization, epic builds cap out at +12 on a stat.

Magic doesn't bypass that cap. Unless there's some factor I'm missing?

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gilescorey
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Re: Spellsword

Post by gilescorey » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:24 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: 1: We acknowledge that spellswords...

...2: We therefore acknowledge, in the pursuit of optimization...
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Sockss
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Sockss » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:30 pm

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There is only one monarch that matters, you swine. We are not amused.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:43 am

Ignoring royalty and company...
Thematically, I'd like sorcerers to have the option to go spellsword, but the path would have to be reviewed entirely and it would have to affect sorcerers in a completely different way than wizards. And by that point, I wonder if it would still be the same path, or the same dedication would go into it - splintering from the chance that it has to grow into something amusing and unique, like the wild mage, into something that is just two restrictions and a few stat bonus.
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Cortex
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:54 am

Personally, I think it'd be better to keep it a wizard exclusive, and when someone is inspired, to make an exclusive for sorcerer.
:)

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:49 am

Peppermint wrote:
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:3: Getting strength is pretty easy if your kit demands it when you can cast 9th level spells.
How?

Post-itemization, epic builds cap out at +12 on a stat.

Magic doesn't bypass that cap. Unless there's some factor I'm missing?
You're not! But with the new AB bonuses, and the fact that +6 str + 19-22 BAB + all the true strike you can shake a fist at, getting an ab in the mid or even high 40's seems to me readily viable for a spellsword with 10 strength- and you'll carry bonus damage from your intelligence as well (if you don't increase it at all from 18, you can get +10 out of it).

It's not amazing, but it will let you contribute until it's time for you to be amazing and dump spells all over the battlefield.

I read something about excluding tenser's transformation, which I'm not sure is necessary, but there's still shapechange and polymorph- which IIRC functions by temporarily changing your base physical scores, which can then still be enhanced further by pre-existing buffs?
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Lorkas
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Lorkas » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:21 am

Remember that the spellsword bonus AB is not BAB, but a bonus that counts as part of your +20 cap to AB bonuses.

This mainly matters because this is what the AB will look like with 10 STR and +12 STR:
15 BAB + 7 (23 spellsword) + 6 (STR) + 4 (feats, generously) + 3 (masterly damask) = 36 AB

You could boost this by two more by using GMW, but would most likely not get the full four from feats since most will not take epic prowess. Importantly, whether or not you use GMW, your AB with true strike in this STRless build is 46, since your 7 spellsword AB counts toward the cap.

I would suggest that a melee build that can't even hit 50 AB with true strike active should look for ways to increase their AB.

Kirito
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Kirito » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:26 am

Yeah, lorkas has pretty much covered it. Whilst 22 is the mac BAB (14 fighter 6 wiz pre epic, 10 wiz epic) you lose out on a lot to do so.

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:04 pm

I think I don't exactly understand how the spellsword added AB/BAB works, and why it doesn't work with monks - as it was asked and stated elsewhere. Not thematically, but mechanically.
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Kirito
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Kirito » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:51 pm

For spellswords, AB is added at levels 3 7 11 etc. Not a BAB increase (that needs hacks or affects all wizard classes).

The number of attacks is overwritten based on character levels IF spellsword is the main class (wiz > all other levels). The attacks use the normal progression if armed (-5) or unarmed (-3). This is why it doesn't work for monks.

I /think/ I may have a better way to do the attacks but I'm not sure if it will work as required.

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Iceborn » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:29 pm

That's what I suspected, though Lorkas made me think otherwise (this is all your fault, Lorkas!).
Though, if you can figure another way to implement it, all the better. Monk spellswords sound interesting, and so any other class that may come in the future that uses altered BAB/Extra attacks.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
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Kirito
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Kirito » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:47 pm

Iceborn wrote:That's what I suspected, though Lorkas made me think otherwise (this is all your fault, Lorkas!).
Though, if you can figure another way to implement it, all the better. Monk spellswords sound interesting, and so any other class that may come in the future that uses altered BAB/Extra attacks.
Yup, just saw the misleading line!. The AB increase is meant to simulate BAB but isn't actually BAB xD. Ohh fun!

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Lorkas
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Lorkas » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:21 pm

Oh yea, I meant to say "is not BAB" but omitted the "not". I edited it above.

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Opustus
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Opustus » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:48 pm

About sorcies being spellswordable:

While I don't disagree with the claim that there'd be an influx of sorcy/paladins, I fail to see how it would make the class combination OMG OP. As some people have shown here, the spellsword will land on a pretty weak overall AB, which leads me to believe that spells will still be the main source of hard offence.

Wizards get the essential extra feats to utilize both combat and spellcasting effectively, whereas Sorcerers might have to compromise between their strong suit.

Sorcerers can already multiclass as Pallies/BGs, which makes them OP, but it doesn't make them OP in terms of combat: the saving throws is the biggest boon, while the AC bonus is more situational (it's still really good). The AC bonus from the Spellsword class, however, is subject to the good old Dodge AC bonus, which already limits the OPness of Divine Shield, leading me again to believe that the best bonus from Pally/BG is the saving throws.

Lastly, I'll address a philosophy the DM/Development Team seems to follow with their mechanical and balance decisions. Arelith, in general, seems to favour player freedom over calculating hard data to settle for once and for all which class is the OPest and adjusting stats thusly. If people want to play Sorc/RDD, Sorc/BG, Sorc/Pally as a spellsword, I don't see why that would be barred as, judging by the rationale provided above, the outcome wouldn't maybe be as powerful as many make it out to be.
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Thera
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Thera » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:46 am

I'd leave it as Wizard only.

It makes sense that intelligence would give you an edge in combat when you turn your mind to martial prowess

Whereas your force of personality, outsider blood or being really, really, ridiculously good looking via charisma doesn't really translate into combat ability in a spell-swordy kind of way.
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Tyrantos
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Tyrantos » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:26 am

Thera wrote: Whereas your force of personality, outsider blood or being really, really, ridiculously good looking via charisma doesn't really translate into combat ability in a spell-swordy kind of way.
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Purplemyst
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Re: Spellsword

Post by Purplemyst » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:08 am

I just wanted to say I love the new spellsword changes, it's been a long while since a new path has made me an arelith addict. The new imbue wep and armor are amazing and such an interesting idea.

Thank you for taking the time to make such an amazing class!! :)

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