Shadow Weave buffs

[Hunter548]

Adding spell slots does let them take shadowdancer levels before epic without crippling themselves, though. You're right that it mostly helps wizards though. I do, however, like Sockss' idea; the path right now suffers a bit from being a duo-class path, even though it appears "meant" to be a wizard/sorc path.

The Shades Evocations and Neg Energy Burst also aren't very useful replacements for evocations: Negative Energy Burst does around 25 damage max, and all the shades evocations both trip evasion (meaning you'll frequently do no damage), have saves for half anyways, and all just don't do that much damage: Shades Cone of Cold does the most damage out of them, and even then only averages about 45 damage before saves, elemental resistances or the like.

Horrid Wilting is nice, but still doesn't do as much as IGMS does.

On the subject of the dispelling change that was floated a few posts ago, I definitely think it'd be unhelpful and a nerf: I personally don't ever buff myself all that much when doing PvE content to conserve spellslots, and it just hurts what they're supposed to be good at (Throwing out disable spells) by making it harder to remove the immunities to said disables.

Wytchee's ideas are neat; however, I don't see pernicious magic being all that helpful (SR is usually a non-issue, given that you can lower it with breach spells unless they're a monk, and if they're a monk they probably have too much for you to get past anyways). Shadow Double likewise seems rather lackluster; I can't imagine most shadow mages aren't focusing in illusion, and the shadow double would have to be really, really empowered to actually be a worthwhile -guard tank. I also (admittedly a bit selfishly) still like the idea of giving them a Shadow Walk ability to teleport to the Plane of Shadows 1/rest. Insidious Magic is neat, but a bit lacking in utility as well.


Edit: While yes, I think a lot of the problems with Shadow Weave will show up later in the character's life, I've already run into situations where my lack of evocation was a substantial drawback at level 9. Monsters like Doom Stirges, or Morghunn's Soldiers, that have substantial physical protection (Epic Dodge, or a lot of DR/DI) are usually a perfect target for a bit of magic missile spam, but without it they're significantly harder to kill. I imagine this sort of thing is only going to get worse as I level.

[Wytchee]

I also agree with Hunter's suggestion for a shadow walk ability.

[Yellena]

●Their See Invisibility, Ultravisions and True Seeing automatically detects Shadow Doors, and they can freely walk through them.

●Shadows (from Shadow Conjuration Line) lasts Turns per Level and are perfect clones.

●Displacement lasts Turns per Level.

●Enervation works like Energy Drain ("permanent" and can be stacked).

●Ghostly Visage and Ethereal Visage: +5% Concealment per each Spell Focus feat.

●Now also silences on failed save.

●Circle of Death: +3 Maximum HP, +2 per each Spell Focus feat.

●Enervation and Energy Drain: -2 Levels, -1 per Spell Focus feat.

●They gain free Darkvision feat and Ultravision uses.

(Optional: None of the bonuses above works during Day time (more spec. under the sun light, so maybe day AND outside areas, caves excluded... may be a pain to deal with?), except if under effects of Shadow Shield). Continual Light also denny all of them?



The bonuses below only works when in the Shadow Plane, during Night time or when either you or target (depends if buff or offensive spell) are inside (near) a Darkness area (loses benefit if the area is dispelled or if leaves area):
(Optional Extra: Could be interesting but too good: the effects below ALSO works when Shadow Shield is on, but casting Light or Continual Light on the mage negates everything, EVEN the usual bonuses)

●Spells from Illusion, Enchantment or Necromancy and Darkness lasts 10x more.
Round => Turn => Hour => Day

●The bonus to DC of Illusion, Enchantment or Necromancy spells are doubled (+2 => +4).
Alternativelly, they gain +1 extra per focus feat.

●Shadow Shield acts like Greater Sanctuary (gains Etherealness for the Shadow Shield's duration as long do not take aggressive actions). The Etherealness still have a cooldown, and it's counter is unrelated to Greater Sanctuary.
Another Shadow Mage's Ultravision and See Invisibility can see through this.

●Can use Shadow Conjuration (greater) or Shades on a door to make it a Shadowdoor that only party members can cross.

●Invisibility spells renews itself when "Out of Combat", until the initial duration of the spell ends.

●Enervation and Energy Drain have double effect (come on, a single scroll reverts it anyway).

●Ghostly Visage and Ethereal Visage +10% concealment.

●Circle of Death: +3 ==> +6 Maximum HP.

●Ray of Enfeeblement and Negative Energy Burst: also lowers DEX.

●Enervation and Energy Drain: -2 Levels ==> -4 Levels.

●Negative Damage is doubled if Shadow Shield is on.

●Ultravision and See Invisibility together gives Blind Sense.

[Sockss]

Pass.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is the Shadow Plane [tagged] with anything special?

I'd love to see Shadow Weavers have all their spells maximized/empowered/extended on the Shadow Plane, maybe with a +% depending on level, but always a d100 chance. (I.e. a level 10 sharran will have a 50% chance of their Mage Armour being extended, but a level 21 sharran will have a 75% etc.)

I wish so many Enchantment/Illusion/Necromancy spells (the spell schools of Shar) were not so save-based. "Make the save or die" isn't the most fun, and it feels like it's hard to balance around. At the same time, it polarizes PvE content - you either WoB the epic spawn and they all die, or you WoB and nothing dies and you're aaaaaah.

This is why I feel like there's no need for the removal of evocation. I would rather there is a % failure for using evocation spells (that is flat, and never increases/decreases). Maybe 33% or something. Sharrans in PnP have the luxury of thousands of spells to choose from, whereas Sharrans here do not.

Alternatively,
- Possible for all Sharran familiars to become shadows/shadow variants?
- Can there be Shadow Weave-only items that can really only be used by Sharrans?
- Can Finger of Death, WoB, Weird, etc., work differently for Shadow Weavers? Maybe some kind of penalty regardless of success/failure?

The -shadowwalk ability is super cool.

edit: The PnP Shadow Weave feat reduces Evocation and Transmutation caster levels. Maybe we can do the same? I.e. Evocation and Transmutation are permanently cast at = CL-3?

[susitsu]

It would bother me if they were made objectively better necromancers in so many ways. I was doing Sharran necromancy before it was cool.

But, I seriously don't like the idea of locking in being an actually really good necromancer to this path, one so restrictive on how you roleplay your character, in that you can only come up with so many ideas for Sharrans in a row.

I like a lot of other suggestions, though, and in regards to the dispelling: With dispel chances already so low in epics, you'll just never ever dispel anyone if everyone else is more resistant.

sharran tower could really use some tuning up and blocking out of players who use A Certain In-Game Mechanic FOIG

Increasing a Shadow Mage's offensive ability vs. SR would also make their leveling process a bit more pleasant.

Shadow Familiars aren't something I'd do as it just screams METAGAME ME.

edit: The PnP Shadow Weave feat reduces Evocation and Transmutation caster levels. Maybe we can do the same? I.e. Evocation and Transmutation are permanently cast at = CL-3?

this would really solve a vast amount of shadow mage problems, tbh

I also really don't think a Sharran RP locked class should get too much power in general. Secrecy first.

[Sockss]

edit: The PnP Shadow Weave feat reduces Evocation and Transmutation caster levels. Maybe we can do the same? I.e. Evocation and Transmutation are permanently cast at = CL-3?

this would really solve a vast amount of shadow mage problems, tbh

That just means a level 23 shadow mage has no real downside on your traditional mage - so is a direct upgrade (Unless you're using ice storm!)

Secrecy first.

100%

[Lorkas]

Unless the -3 comes after any caps imposed by the spells themselves. 7d10 max fireball, for example.

Edit: it occurs to me now that that would still mean a shadow weave mage can deal the full IGMS damage to a single target. Probably not good.

Increasing a Shadow Mage's offensive ability vs. SR would also make their leveling process a bit more pleasant.

I don't think this should happen, at least not against SR that doesn't come from spells. It could make sense for the to be better at getting past SR that comes from the cleric or druid spells.

[susitsu]

Personally, I was just explaining the reasoning behind it. (The SR thing.)

I'm not really sure how I feel about it. I honestly could and have gotten by without using evo spells. While I keep some prepped (unf reflex saves,) almost all of my fights have been won without using them.

If I was a shadow mage, and I did not have that choice? Raw DPS is an option in the form of dragons, vampires, and the whole slew of fiends from the blood war and even slaads.

if that doesn't work, escape active combat and lense. Or die, losing isn't always that bad, even if it's most commonly bashing.

I like the idea of it getting more treats, but I don't know how I feel about too much given to them, let alone the reasons against evocation listed above. I think access to bigsby's alone is a pretty big sacrifice, yeah, but there's still options.

Utility, I think, is the way to go.

[Lorkas]

Thematically, as long as they can't cast anything that creates light, it's probably fine. All of the fire spells definitely need to be out. It isn't obvious to me that the rest of the evocations need to be nixed as well, though for balance reasons they should perhaps get a reduction to the DCs on those evocations and either lose the no-save evocations (missile storms especially--they shouldn't be able to do the same old evo combo as other mages while also having better DCs on N/En/I spells).

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Thematically, as long as they can't cast anything that creates light, it's probably fine.

Heresy. Don't you know Shar is the goddess of the sun, but torn from her throne by her vengeful, jealous sister?

We shall reclaim our rightful place.

#darkbeginningshavethebrightestends

[Lorkas]

She's got some work to do on her Shadow Weave then.

[Hunter548]

He's making a joke about the beliefs his Sharran had years ago.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I guess it's been awhile. But the Matrices can still be found!

[Adjustments]

I am little bit confused here...

......

From what I understand the perceived problems of this path begin at later levels, as in early levels You would have access to boosted DC spells like: Confusion, Negative Bursts, Killers, Enervetions, Fears... etc. Is that correct?

The Shades(Flame Wall) is already a non-save spell in its current Arelith implementation, though its obviously a little bit problematic as its not a fire-and -forget spell.

Shades (Cone) and generally Cone spells are a little bit harder to use then IGMS or Chain lightnings but it certainly is a solid offensive spell and with boosted DC even if You don't spec into illusion making it DC-wise a lvl 8 spell with no focuses. Mind also that having free access to HIPS allows You to effectively cone anything with literally no risk.. as You can always HIPS out.

I suppose the true issue lies in the fact the path does not have access to a reliable and easy to use non-save spell (MMissile, IGMS, Ice Storm).

Yet it does allow still for a plethora of solid damaging spell options - Horrid (boosted Fort Save), Shades (boosted Reflex saves), Flame Arrows (uncapped, Reflex saves), Negative Burst (boosted Fort saves), these are all viable offensive options covering both Fort and Reflex saves.

For Will-based spells.. well both Enchantments and Illusions are boosted - the primary schools which operate on these saves so thats also not a point.

Lack of Bigbies could be raised as no access to Rflx-save disables.. but Greater Shadow Conjuration:Web .. is a greatly underestimated spell giving You effectively a lvl 7 equivalent of reflex-disable spell.. and on top of that an AoE which ignores spell save boost from spellcraft, flatfooter and spell interrupter in one button. Which I dare to say is actually more powerful then a bigby grasper.


The only thing which is actually standing out to me currently in terms of "fixing" offensive capabilities of Shadow Weave mages at later levels is uncapping the Shades(Cone), giving cap of 15 to Shades(Fireball) and uncapping Shades(Flame Wall).

I would probably consider also changing the Shades (Flame Wall) damage to Negative or Cold to fit in better thematically.

Do You have any other suggestions?

Hello,
Unfortunately, in implementation none of this seems to be in order.
The subspells from Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, and Shades do not use the innate level of the conjuration, but rather the innate level of the subspell. Thus as Web is a 2nd level spell, the final DC would be 10+2+[INT/CHA Modifier]+SF/GSF illusion, +2 more from the Shadow Mage Path bonus to illusion DC.
It's a loss of 3 DC in this case, for whatever that's worth.

In addition, because of the scripting used to prohibit Shadow Mages from outputting any evocation effects, they actually /cannot/ currently use the subspells of SC/GSC/Shades which are evocation. Such as Cone of Cold.
I know, it's supposed to count as illusion. It seems it does not in regards to the prohibitive script.

[Giftstoff]

Shadowmages need damage that isnt directly tied to saves, or some other way to take care of problems with the insanely boosted saves around the server in both PVE and PVP.

If you fight a target that uses a clarity and death ward wand? Well you're going to die, because you can do almost nothing to harm them.

Edit: As well, I really think its a huge waste and counterproductive to say: "Well shadowmages can use the shadow versions of evocation spells", which function exactly as evocation spells, when those are forbidden to them. Its like making a druid path that inhibits all animal companions but they get a special animal companion once per day.

[Hunter548]

Not like the evocation spells from the Shades line are even really worth using even if they could. Fireball and Cone of Cold both blow.