Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

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-XXX-
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by -XXX- » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:42 pm

IMO most of the viable melee builds surpass the EDK in terms of raw stats by the time they reach max lvl. The real issue I am seeing here is that they cannot do it at the same point in the character's level progression in which casters get their access to the EDK.
Furthermore, there is also the question of how, why and if at all can the character actually open the artefact shrine (as most melee builds don't have an epic pocket rogue at their disposal).

None of these points addresses the actual power of the respectable classes however. Saying that mages are more powerful than weaponmasters because they can hoard artefacts more easily is a fallacy and I dare to say also just straight up incorrect.

p.s.: Also, on the note of mages and artefacts: most of the time the artefact drop is either non-existant, not very useful (anecdotal evidence: a plain tower shield restricted to halflings :lol: ), or an item that the mage himself cannot utilize very well (heavy armor, exotic weapons, etc.) and ends up passing the item to a melee character (who can actually make good use of the item) anyway.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:56 pm

At the level you get E.D.K. you can go and solo that artifact chest boss.

For those of us who are not elite like -XXX- with our viable builds we die to regular bosses like the water elemental plenty. He can even randomly kill you when you roll a 1 on drown which happens all the time.

Casters don't have that problem, because as long as they put the proper amount of points into spellcraft they can summon that dragon who will woosh away all their problems. No amazing build required.

A good example of how great the spell is would be the last boss at red dragon island. Go do it with two wizards with E.D.K then go do it with two weapon masters. It is easier by such a massive margin.

That also ignores all the great bonuses you get with epic spell focuses like scrying and the ability to summon your friends or stop people from using portal lenses / porting into the zone.

I mean, sure you can't beat a WM 1v1, but you can summon your other WM friend to kill him for you. Just need to play your cards right you know.

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-XXX-
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by -XXX- » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:51 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote:For those of us who are not elite like -XXX- with our viable builds we die to regular bosses like the water elemental plenty. He can even randomly kill you when you roll a 1 on drown which happens all the time.
Huh, attacking the arguer rather than refuting their argument is one of the first signs that your arguments don't hold up.

I fail to see how discussng suboptimal builds holds any relevance towards a balance focused debate TBH. You're essentially pitching an argument stating that an optimal mage build is better than a bad melee build. Well, in that you are indeed correct.

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Karris the Anarchist
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by Karris the Anarchist » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:02 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:Anyone who says spell casters suck forget all the great stats they get from soloing artifact chests with EDK.
Let me just chime in here and say that at level 26 wiz with conjuration focuses, the tidehunter tears apart the EDK in less than five rounds. You can postpone it with improved invis and the basic buff-line, but it is by no means just a 'fire and forget' situation :)
That which doesn't kill you, simply makes you... stranger.

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gilescorey
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by gilescorey » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:27 am

the dragon can roll one versus drown too =)

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flower
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by flower » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:43 am

My silver dragon can handle those bosses, when buffed, healed and bosses are stripped of invisibility.

However getting to these bosses is easier when having a meleer around :D

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:34 am

-XXX- wrote: I fail to see how discussng suboptimal builds holds any relevance towards a balance focused debate TBH. You're essentially pitching an argument stating that an optimal mage build is better than a bad melee build. Well, in that you are indeed correct.
[/quote]

I am saying the ability to provide utility in a way that a weapon master cannot is what makes this argument essentially arguing apples to oranges. I am also saying a near optimal mage build is easier to make than a optimal melee build by a massive margin.

Casters have a boat load of utility that a melee could not even touch. Sure he can read a scroll or cast a wand but he can't yoink people, or summon E.D.K. Or scry people, which has huge in game utility.
PvP is maybe like 2% of the time we spend in game. (That`s being generous.)
Meaning if the other 98% of the time you are scrying people, teleporting your friends and making scrolls for you and your buddies. That has value that you are not considering. Sure you pay spell components but the ability to summon your big beefy friend to a pvp encounter is invaluable.

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-XXX-
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by -XXX- » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:32 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote:near optimal mage build is easier to make than a optimal melee build by a massive margin.
Near optimal mage build is also much harder to pilot than an optimal melee build by a massive margin.

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susitsu
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by susitsu » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:51 am

EDK was also made extremely irrelevant in addition to the massive stat nerfs due to the duration and fear aura nerf.

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Peppermint
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by Peppermint » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:11 am

Oh, boy.

I've actually been considering toning down EDK. Leaning toward a duration nerf, to keep in line with its burst oriented theme.

Prestige
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Re: Wizard/Sorcrer - Spells and Class Limitations

Post by Prestige » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:31 am

EDK is fine for what it is. I think the only change that really needs to be made if you want to have a serious effect on its PvP potential is to make Banishment's summon warding last longer and apply some form of debuff that prevents a mage from transitioning and immediately summoning their EDK anyway.

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