The current state of Wharftown

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Ramza
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Ramza » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:58 pm

Yep, which is why Arelith really requires a consistant stance on the level of power of the setting.

Oh and to your comment on Balors and the like being able to be fought by a level 15 in PnP?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Balor

Well, its the 3.5e version of the Balor. But its similar enough to give enough credence.

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Hunter548
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:25 pm

1) All of the non-spellcasting classes that NWN has are, pretty much without exception, utter trash in PnP because of a variety of factors, most notably being that spellcasting is absurdly good in PnP, and every spellcasting class has some way to get a decent meatshield. More importantly, a lot of these classes get most of their power from magical items, and Arelith is absolutely blown out of the water there. A +6 strength belt would be the strongest of artifacts on Arelith that people would play millions of gold for. They cost 40,000 in PnP.

2) Mages in PnP are so far and away more powerful than their NWN varients that comparing them is absurd. PNP mages get genesis, disintegrate, contingency, etc etc.


3) You can't compare 5e stats to 3.5e stats. 5e is a significantly "lower number" system.


Edit:
Ramza wrote:Yep, which is why Arelith really requires a consistant stance on the level of power of the setting.

Oh and to your comment on Balors and the like being able to be fought by a level 15 in PnP?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Balor

Well, its the 3.5e version of the Balor. But its similar enough to give enough credence.
Said Balor is CR 20. That's quite within the range of what you can throw at a particularly large (6ish) party of level 15s. If the level 15s are particularly optimized, you can probably throw more than just the Balor at them.
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Ramza
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Ramza » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:38 pm

1. Yes, Mages will always be better than Mundane classes in the amount of options and tools they have to deal with situations. But does that change the fact that the inherant scaling of the classes is the same in both NWN and the 3rd edition for the classes.

1.5. Engine limitations are a thing, and game balance is a thing. Take for example any Arelith character transfered into the PnP setting. They would remain almost exactly the same. Trying to say that X character is signifigant levels weaker than its setting counterpart by X amount because of the availability of items/feats/systems, despite having the same base statistics in both, is ridiculous.

2. Yes, magic items are also more plentiful in PnP. But like we can look to above, the scale of the items that the character -could- obtain in either setting do not change the base character's statistics to look at as a factor.

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Hunter548
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:55 pm

Right, and that's exactly my point: Arelith and 3.5 PNP are balanced to a different scale, so what's powerful in one isn't as powerful in the other. The fact that they get the same abilities is irrelevant when the scale by how useful said abilities are is vastly different (And even then, PnP characters get vastly better abilities because of the higher paradigm of magical item power and spellcasting power).
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Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:18 pm

Numerically speaking, Ramza is correct on this issue. It is actually a little easier to be stronger in NWN than it is in PnP because in PnP +1 STR on six different items gets you a grand total of +1 STR (the types of bonus are the same, just on a different item, so the highest one prevails and the others are ignored), not 6 .

Hunter is correct in practical application because in NWN unless specifically scripted to do so or controlled by a DM with the jump to command, that balor will never utter a fly spell, or grapple you with their whip of burny ouchness, or banish you back to the prime material plane (although hypothetically speaking most PC's should be banishable from other planes as residents of the prime material plane).

With that said, this is really about whether or not Wharftown had a chance, and the answer is emphatically yes.

I understand that people are frustrated because Armenius didn't log in; but looked at from an IC perspective, we could say he fled the island to escape the consequences of his actions, and I don't see how that's not legitimate. They still allowed it to get to that point, despite the warning signs of parts of the NPC population deserting.

"I was just being a good citizen/just doing my job."

I could name a real-world example where that didn't fly and people got pwned because of it, but it's been 7 pages and no one's made the reference so I don't want to break the streak.

You know, though.



What might have been otherwise will never be known, but I believe approaching any scenario with the mindset that you've already lost because the DM's are out to get you is a toxic, self-fulfilling mentality that will lead to you not trying, thus the DM's not being able to help you, therefore clearly they must hate you because these awful things happened and you got no help.


Edit: Also, as a side comment- what DM are you playing with that you don't have to go track down an epic level mage with craft wondrous item to get that +6 strength item and then convince him to spend that much XP on you? I want to steal them from you.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sab1
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Sab1 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:20 pm

DarkDreamer wrote:Again, I am not attacking the DM's on it, I agree they cannot be everywhere and see everything, but to call players lazy and that we didn't do anything? and when it feels like your in a cement room and the only exit is the door ahead of you, which by the way is guarded by a minotaur, oh by the way, the only way to have it let you out is to cut off your feet with the dull knife beside you? um...yeah....starting the see the problem here?
You have to let the Dm know, often during the guld/grove conflict we had to send the dm updates, screenshots, etc of things that occurred when he wasn't on. They can only react to what they know about. I not blaming all of wt players, but its clear a few players pushed WT into this, and fled. Once it gets to the last few days its hard to stop.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:43 pm

what DM are you playing with that you don't have to go track down an epic level mage with craft wondrous item to get that +6 strength item and then convince him to spend that much XP on you? I want to steal them from you.
a dm that lets pcs take magic crafting feats, which just utterly destroys wealth by level, really. That game was completely busted.

(Something to keep in mind when making 5E comparisons is that the numbers are vastly different, with a 'maximum' non-magical stat cap of 20, except for barbs, for instance, and that magic items are slightly rarer.)

Anyway, comparing [Weak NWN class] to [Weak dnd class] isn't exactly right. What makes pnp characters stronger is a combination of: Itemization, sheer options, and magic power level, and the best example of that is hardly the vanilla barbarian. Basically anything out of complete Arcane or Epic Level Handbook would an NWN character alive. Or, you know. Ice Assassin. The amount of straight broke stuff in 3.x, even through sheer 'standard optimization' bleedover makes it a fairly one-sided fight on the side of tabletop for anything except straight up normal mundanes with no multiclassing.

Infinite money wall of iron trick? The ability to craft epic spells (And spells in general!), spells with a radius of miles.. Anyway, point is, Arelith characters are far from being demigods. Strong within the context of the setting at level 30? Sure! Demigods? Come on. Divine Rank 0, for hero-gods and lesser-lesser-lesser demigods, grants immortality for starters. Rank 0 means you defy mortal limits, as well- "but numbers, my str score is-" Not beyond mortal limits. High skill ranks in pnp can let you walk on clouds, read minds without magic or psionics, and more. Mortal limits in Faerun are much higher than the real world.... but still well beneath deities.

So, that in mind, in context? No level 30 character is going to be taking down Kelemvor anytime soon, and soloing a fleet of Amnian destroyers (who are just as likely to have level 30 badasses) is probably also out of the question. Can you imagine the havok an island full of 'demigods' would create?
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:45 pm

What might have been otherwise will never be known, but I believe approaching any scenario with the mindset that you've already lost because the DM's are out to get you is a toxic, self-fulfilling mentality that will lead to you not trying, thus the DM's not being able to help you, therefore clearly they must hate you because these awful things happened and you got no help.
Just want to quote this right here, because it holds so much truth.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:55 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:Can you imagine the havok an island full of 'demigods' would create?
To me that actually sounds utterly glorious. I wouldn't call anyone on Arelith a demigod or even a god, but divine rank's biggest perks come in the addition of automatic successes and the removal of automatic failures. The "beyond mortal limits" thing sounds cool, until you remember that mortals can and have slain gods, mortal limits be damned.

Divine rank 0 is basically what happens when a god sponsors you and Ao says "yeah, okay," then goes back off to build ice-cream stick castles. It can happen at level 10, and it can happen at level 30, and anywhere in between. It usually comes with about 20 outsider hit dice, though, as a nice immediate boost.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cortex
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Cortex » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:56 pm

as if player characters needed something else to fuel their egos
:)

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One Two Three Five
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:57 pm

They've slain them as part of big, setting-altering events, sure. Or, I dunno, licensed games. Usually with the help/manipulation of other gods.
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Ramza
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Ramza » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:13 pm

GrumpyCat, it does hold truth. However from experience most of the players who dont congregate to Cordor and the like and tend to stick in WT tend to remember very vividly what occured to them in past events. And like Durvayas said previously, it has already been shown in the previous siege on WT that once the Dm that supported them Dced, the entire thing went to hell in a handbasket for 'em.

So I just want you to imagine. You have had all these bad experiences with events of this nature and then another is thrusted upon you. However this time you dont have any of the Dms who converse with you and tell you anything beyond what the original post by Edward Cordor stated. You get paranoid and pessimistic because this looks almost exactly like what occured in the past and with no DMs to give any kind of promotion or go ahead of other options as well as you seeing the DMs make event after event for the Cordor side to show how they are 'winning' the war for the narrative. You would get defensive, and seek to harm as much as possible as you dont see any way for you do anything but lose.

This is the mindset that permeated WT, "We have no way out beyond what they lined out for us, might as well make it hurt them as much as possible.". Which is why I said before that both sides of a conflict, if DMs are involved, need to be informed by the DMs of their options. It may be creativity breaking, but it at least allows the players to see that it isnt just another set in stone case of them being screwed from the outset.
Last edited by Ramza on Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ramza
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Ramza » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:17 pm

Oh, and Hunter. Sorry if I wasnt clear on what I was meaning. I said what I did the way I did because more often than not I hear people say that Level 30 characters are only like level 12 in the setting. (Something I personally always felt as a bit hamfisted)

Sab1
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Sab1 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:23 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
One Two Three Five wrote:Can you imagine the havok an island full of 'demigods' would create?
To me that actually sounds utterly glorious. I wouldn't call anyone on Arelith a demigod or even a god, but divine rank's biggest perks come in the addition of automatic successes and the removal of automatic failures. The "beyond mortal limits" thing sounds cool, until you remember that mortals can and have slain gods, mortal limits be damned.

Divine rank 0 is basically what happens when a god sponsors you and Ao says "yeah, okay," then goes back off to build ice-cream stick castles. It can happen at level 10, and it can happen at level 30, and anywhere in between. It usually comes with about 20 outsider hit dice, though, as a nice immediate boost.
You want demi gods, Then let the boost to lvl 40 toons begin.

Ramza
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Re: The current state of Wharftown

Post by Ramza » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:46 pm

Dont forget to re-allow Devcrit. :P

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