The current state of Wharftown

[Queen Titania]

I understand what the DM's mean about the starter city being essential and all the work going into it, but I do have to ask.

What is the point in RP'ing with Cordor in that light?

Right before the RP begins, right before the first plot is thought up or the first plan goes into motion you know what the outcome will be. Cordor triumphs, someone may or may not end up being executed, a rival settlement may or may not be blown to smithereens.

Interacting with Cordor in any way bar reverently seems to be a bad idea (tm), because it will always win. It's like turning to the last page of a thriller, after reading it there's not a fat lot of point reading the rest.

I get that people like the good triumphing over evil narrative etc and that Cordor has been held by evil PC's several times, but I do like a bit of ambiguity in what direction a story might go.

With Cordor, and to a lesser extent Aundor there's no point, because the outcome is known from the start. I don't see what the appeal is in making an RP in which Cordor links in light of that. I don't mind losing or winning, but it would be nice to have the possibility of an outcome rather than having a specific one guaranteed regardless of PC actions in a story telling environment.

Try looking at it like this: You are RPing with a controlling faction. Your enemy isn't Cordor, but who runs it, or who runs it for the king in the case of Cordor. With effort you could see them assassinated, thrown out of power, morally defeated, chaos sewn, and with supervision and a lot of work put into it, temporary or short-term lingering damage even applied to the city itself.

We are not saying change is not possible, damage is not possible, but both of these things come with great risk that you may change, and your group may be damaged.

Essentially, change your goal from being against a settlement, which is a lot more improbable for success, to against a ruling faction, which is a lot more probable in success.

[The GrumpyCat]

What is the point in RP'ing with Cordor in that light?

What's the point of PvP? I mean - even if you kill the character they can just respawn. So surely we should make all pvp permadeath? Amiright?

And yet lots of people do it. And good roleplay comes out of it.

So you can RP in order to take the city by force...
You can get elected and be the evil dictator you always wanted...
You can add change the player community around it and the tone of the city...(getting rid of the guards, having thugs heavy hand people instead, money with menaces etc...)

This here is a great answer.

Will DMs get involved? Well, I can't speak for all the team but for me it really comes down to would the NPCs get involved anyway?

NPC's rarely care about things that effect PCs, but they do care about things that effect them.

So passing a law that says Bane is now the official god of Cordor well, I imagine that the Triad NPCs might have something to say - and you might get roleplay but I don't think that the king would neccesarly get involved, or anything dire like that.

ON the other hand passing a law that said all children in the city are to have their tongues cut out, then be sold into slavery to Zhentil Keep? That would get the NPCs -furious- and yes, would probably bring some severe backlash from the npcs. Most npcs are really your average Joe, and have that amount of apathy. Fairly chilled out, until it really starts effecting them.

Wanna get rid of the player guard? Feel free. Wanna make taxes 50%? That's what they're there for. Wanna declair Lovitar official City Goddess? Sure - why not. So long as you are careful about publicaly torturing normal npc citizens in the streets. PC government tends to mostly effect pcs. If they start to effect npcs, then we step in, sure.


Finally, one useful thing I've found is this: Don't think of Arelith as Game of Thrones. Think of it as Star Trek, or Once Upon a Time.
Huge changes rarely happen in Arelith - what instead the centre of the drama more often is is character growth and interaction. The story is less about how your character shapes the world, but rather how the world shapes your character.

- Also what Titania said.

[Sab1]

The only limitation is that it can't be razed to the ground...

So you can RP in order to take the city by force...
You can get elected and be the evil dictator you always wanted...
You can add change the player community around it and the tone of the city...(getting rid of the guards, having thugs heavy hand people instead, money with menaces etc...)

Lots of ways to interact... just don't burn the city down.

I agree with this 100%.
People screaming this isn't fair we can never win seem to forget Cordor has lost it's share of fights on the island and no one stepped in and helped cordor. Is it fair the surface can't unite, run below, and destroy the UD city once and for all? As Kirito said you will never be allowed to destroy the city. But seriously how many wars have been on the island, and how many times has Cordor razed them to the ground? People are overreacting and making it seem like this is a common occurance that anytime cordoe gets mad at someone they will burn the town down. The difference this time was some people in WT pushed this to such an extreme devs and dms had to take notice and get involved. When way outs were introduced players ignored them. Wars generally are pointless anyway since it usually comes down to who has the best pvpers.

Cordor has been good and evil, guards have been good and also corrupt. This is why no settlement (except the UD) should be automatically evil or good imo. Since as cordor has shown things change, that's why I like cordor because players have such a large impact on the city.

[DarkDreamer]

Actually gonna respond to the "players ignored this" line....thats entirely false.

I can actually COUNT the number of players that TRIED to stop Armenius.

Jantira, tried REPEATEDLY to get people to help him capture them, MATHIAS tried to help, SEVERAL WTER'S TRIED, AMADEO was trying, MANY people were trying, but when your given the....HERES YOUR 1 AND ONLY CHANCE, BRING US ARMENIUS OR DIE....well....when Armenius stopped logging in so people couldn't catch him and stop it....it became a HA HA HA your pwned and cant do jack about it. So it became a predetermined thing that WT was meant to die and there was no other way around it.

Stop blaming the players, start looking at the fact that WT had NO WAY OUT since Armenius would not log in to be caught so it became a too damn bad for you.

[Queen Titania]

Actually gonna respond to the "players ignored this" line....thats entirely false.

I can actually COUNT the number of players that TRIED to stop Armenius.

Jantira, tried REPEATEDLY to get people to help him capture them, MATHIAS tried to help, SEVERAL WTER'S TRIED, AMADEO was trying, MANY people were trying, but when your given the....HERES YOUR 1 AND ONLY CHANCE, BRING US ARMENIUS OR DIE....well....when Armenius stopped logging in so people couldn't catch him and stop it....it became a HA HA HA your pwned and cant do jack about it. So it became a predetermined thing that WT was meant to die and there was no other way around it.

Stop blaming the players, start looking at the fact that WT had NO WAY OUT since Armenius would not log in to be caught so it became a too damn bad for you.

We actually as a team laid out possible scenarios for Wharftown to deal with the situation, none of them involving a direct hand over of WT's mayor. None of these routes were pursued by the PC's there and the main player effort we saw was evacuation of civilians, which was good, and minimized Wharftown's casualties.

[DarkDreamer]

Actually gonna respond to the "players ignored this" line....thats entirely false.

I can actually COUNT the number of players that TRIED to stop Armenius.

Jantira, tried REPEATEDLY to get people to help him capture them, MATHIAS tried to help, SEVERAL WTER'S TRIED, AMADEO was trying, MANY people were trying, but when your given the....HERES YOUR 1 AND ONLY CHANCE, BRING US ARMENIUS OR DIE....well....when Armenius stopped logging in so people couldn't catch him and stop it....it became a HA HA HA your pwned and cant do jack about it. So it became a predetermined thing that WT was meant to die and there was no other way around it.

Stop blaming the players, start looking at the fact that WT had NO WAY OUT since Armenius would not log in to be caught so it became a too damn bad for you.

We actually as a team laid out possible scenarios for Wharftown to deal with the situation, none of them involving a direct hand over of WT's mayor. None of these routes were pursued by the PC's there and the main player effort we saw was evacuation of civilians, which was good, and minimized Wharftown's casualties.

Yes, and while I don't doubt thats how the DM's saw it who COULD see behind the scenes, the PLAYERS only saw the SINGLE option of handing over Armenius as the only way to save Wharftown. People did try things, even if the DMs didnt see it, I know, I was involved in several planning sessions, yet nothing we did made any difference what so ever. My post there wasn't to attack the DMs planning, more to address that the players werent being lazy, but that they DID try things.

[Nitro]

Well, the DM's aren't omnipotent either. Did any of these plotlines contact a DM or the DM team in general to get them to fruition?

As for there not being any obvious resolutions presented to the players, I'm of the opinion that that's a good thing, since it leaves players more free to work out things themselves, and create their own solution. When presented with an easy fix, people tend to pursue only that and not try other things.

[DarkDreamer]

Again, I am not attacking the DM's on it, I agree they cannot be everywhere and see everything, but to call players lazy and that we didn't do anything? and when it feels like your in a cement room and the only exit is the door ahead of you, which by the way is guarded by a minotaur, oh by the way, the only way to have it let you out is to cut off your feet with the dull knife beside you? um...yeah....starting the see the problem here?

[The GrumpyCat]

I was involved in several planning sessions, yet nothing we did made any difference what so ever

Please, please, please, contact us about this sort of thing! We don't bite. The worst we'll say is 'No.'

Yes, there was one obvious way out, but we were happy for people to take other options too. (in your example what about talking the Minotaur into helping you? Or enfuriating it, tricking it into charging you, only to duck low so that it crashes into the wall and knocks itself out.) I don't recall seeing a post here by us accusing the Wharftowners of being Lazy... But what we don't know about, we can't react to.

[DarkDreamer]

When way outs were introduced players ignored them. Wars generally are pointless anyway since it usually comes down to who has the best pvpers. - Sab1

This is what it was directed at.

[Queen Titania]

I was involved in several planning sessions, yet nothing we did made any difference what so ever

Please, please, please, contact us about this sort of thing! We don't bite. The worst we'll say is 'No.'

Yes, there was one obvious way out, but we were happy for people to take other options too. (in your example what about talking the Minotaur into helping you? Or enfuriating it, tricking it into charging you, only to duck low so that it crashes into the wall and knocks itself out.) I don't recall seeing a post here by us accusing the Wharftowners of being Lazy... But what we don't know about, we can't react to.

Want to reinforce this really for any thing, big or small event or idea. Even if it's just a fluff event, the worst we'll say is no.

[Xerah]

Want to reinforce this really for any thing, big or small event or idea. Even if it's just a fluff event, the worst we'll say is no.

This is a good reminder, thanks.

The NWN servers I've played on it was generally recommended that you do your own thing and if a DM see something to react to, they would. I guess that is harder here with a large player base.

[Ramza]

Did the DM team ever contact OOCly the players involved for the WT side to lay out what 'could' happen. Instead of flat out posting as the King that they had a week. With how big events like this happen shouldn't both sides be fully aware of the potential avenues. Instead of being left in the dark till its basically too late to do anything through a combination of RL obligations and OOC pessimism from basically seeing the DM team give them no win condition. If the DMs are the ones giving 'suitable' ways for this to go, shouldnt it be the DMs that inform the players of their potential options and allow them to actually see ways to do something to prevent that pessimism?

[Nitro]

Did the DM team ever contact OOCly the players involved for the WT side to lay out what 'could' happen. Instead of flat out posting as the King that they had a week. With how big events like this happen shouldn't both sides be fully aware of the potential avenues. Instead of being left in the dark till its basically too late to do anything through a combination of RL obligations and OOC pessimism from basically seeing the DM team give them no win condition. If the DMs are the ones giving 'suitable' ways for this to go, shouldnt it be the DMs that inform the players of their potential options and allow them to actually see ways to do something to prevent that pessimism?

That stifles player creativity though. Players stop trying to think up creative solutions or different ways through any given event because the DM's have laid out what they can do. It'll be like reading the last chapter of a book first and then just figuring out how to make things end up that way. (or ways)

[DarkDreamer]

I see your side Nitro, but see it on the Wharftown side, it very much looked like one sided favortisim for Cordor at the end. While it likely was not, it came out that way. You have 1 RL week to hand over Armenius or we blow up your town....thats like your boss saying you have 1 rl week to invent a new way to do math based on fractions or we blow up your house, kill your family and leave you on the street. People under pressure on a tight deadline, nevermind an extremely short one, dont do well. Especially when your also handed a letter by the boss that says oh by the way, the only way you can do this math is with Multiplication.

[Cerk Evermoore]

In defense of Wharftown, we thought we had a guy who was in communication with the DMs but I guess not.

[caldura firebourne]

So, I'm seeing the original topic of this thread was asking to have wharftown boys spawn further from the boat.

This has happened and now it seems the thread has pretty much devolved into people complaining about nothing being allowed done to save wharftown with dm responses about what very possibly could have happened if players weren't trying to fight the battle on the forums instead

Yet wharftown right now is pretty much a blank slate that could be turned into something new with some IC effort, but we're still here battling on the forums instead

[Mr_Rieper]

Not seeing much devolving. This is pretty solid discussion with plenty of input from the DMs.

It's good to discuss things like these, because although not as drastic, DM events happen all the time. And those events involve NPCs and problem solving, so it helps to have an insight into how to DMs handle things. It's important not to give up.

It's also important to respect the roles that NPCs play in things, and it's good to be reminded that they may just react when confronted with the actions of players.

And it's very important, in the case of another massive server event like this, to have an insight into what your fellow players are thinking. I'd like to believe we get a little bit better at this with each event.

With the exception of some mudslinging, this is a thread of good advice and sincere feedback. Doesn't get much better than that.

[Cerk Evermoore]

People seriously need to respect NPCS. It's like 25% of playing a good villain. The other 25% being good sportsmanship and 50% in the realm of RP.

[Ramza]

Yes, one should respect the NPCs. But you must also remember your level of power in regards to the setting. Remember that a level 20-30 character is essentially a Demi-god, with a lot of the gear in Arelith actually being better than the equipment most 'gods' use as their personal artefacts.

Which is why creative solutions to conflict with NPCs are needed. To avoid the setting breaking, and lore breaking super stat buffs. "Greetings i'm a normal guard with 100 AB and 100 in all stats. I sit over there in the corner with a better statline than demon lords.".

[One Two Three Five]

Level 20-30 in NWN is not even close to 20-30 in D&D, and even then, a level 30 pc doesn't have divine ranks. (And the stats for gods in Faiths and Pantheons are for their avatars anyway.)

Like I get that people love for their characters to be super strong anime protags, but saying 'we're as strong as gods or stronger' is patently ridiculous and I think you know that.

[Ramza]

Yet in the server we continually fight demon lords, Balors, and Pit Fiends. All of whom are quite far up on the rung of power. And to your comment on the level of power being different for PnP, you are correct in the extensive systems, feats, combat styles, spells, and skills that NWN lacks. However you are not correct if we are using the baseline statistics and growth of the character. Both of which follow faithfully and can be used as a basic comparison to setting strength. Just because NWN lacks the majority of the content that normal PnP has in the 3.0/3.5 editions, it doesnt mean that the measure of strength proposed by the PnP setting cannot be condusive to the NWN setting. Expecially as Arelith is set in the Forgotten realms setting.

Remember that Elminster himself in the Third edition is only level 35.

(
Fighter 1
Rogue 2
Cleric 3
Wizard 24
Archmage 5
)

[Hunter548]

No character on arelith has a weapon that matches godly artifacts. The equipment that max level characters on Arelith have is roughly equivilent to the wealth by level stuff of a level 10-15 pnp character.

1235 is 100% right about the level thing, too. Level 30 on arelith isn't even close to epic levels in PnP. Level 30 PnP characters kill gods and demon lords: Not Avatars thereof like you can do on arelith, but the actual beings themselves to steal their power. Balors, Pit Fiends? This is the domain of level 15ish characters in PnP. Those are so unchallenging to a level 30 PnP character that you probably wouldn't even get EXP for them.

You can't compare Arelith levels to PnP levels.

[Ramza]

[Scrubbed for being jerkish and unproductive. Cut it out.] The basic statistics for the classes are essentially the same for the 3rd edition NWN was based off of. I dont get where your getting this 'PnP are so much stronger' when the only difference between the NWN and PnP edition are the lacking feats, spells, and systems. To give an example, lets look at the Barbarian in 3rd edition pnp and the Barbarian in NWN. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm, http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian. If you look at both of them side by side, they are essentially exactly the same. This persists for anything but the spellcasting classes for the most part. Whom receive the greater spell lists. Even the Epic scaling for these classes are similar, at which point does the PnP gain any substantial boon that isnt one of the feats/spells that by Engine NWN cannot have? To say that levels in NWN cannot compare at all to the setting that Arelith is based in as an example for your roleplay of your character's strength is ridiculous.

Secondly in regards to equipment, since many of the gods do not have set weapon stats pointed out in the 3rd edition that can easily be found. Lets look to the 5th edition in regards to Orcus. In particular his wand, This is a +5 Unholy weapon with a special rule of a 40 DC Fort save to use, or die. This when we compare it to what -can- be made in Arelith isnt quite as powerful in use. For the basic example, lets use a Keened Masterly Damask weapon. In stats, the only advantage Orcus' weapon would have would be against Good Aligned creatures to take advantage of the Unholy attribute, which in every other case would be null. While in every other situation the Keened Mdamask would overtake it in its sheer damage potential.

[Cortex]

In the OC, you get to overthrow or kill Mephistopheles around mid epics. This doesn't translate to Arelith, which is its own settings, where an avatar of some garbage lowly demon lord has the stats that would put Asmodeus, Tempus and Tyr combined to shame.