Revert Greensteel Armour

[Jack Oat]

I'm unsure why this update was pushed through to begin with. At present there's no point to using Greensteel, as any ASF is honestly intolerable. All it does is remove the ability to competently and effectively play a Battle-Mage who has a bit of tankiness to them, and cripple any Bard builds that want to push for the ability to cast in combat.

"Oh Jack, but Still Spell is a thing and this makes it worth it!" No, it doesn't. Still Spell occupies one spell-slot higher and burns a feat. Auto Still Spell I-III occupies three Epic feats at mid-upper Epics, where feats for Magi should be better spent. Moreover, if you're going for those on a battle-mage then there's no point to wearing greensteel anyway, as Adamantine fullplate and a tower shield are going to grant all the better.

Going back to my original point, there's just no point in using greensteel in its current state. I'm sure some people will pipe in on the niche situations where it's been "nifty" or "neat" to have some Arcane Spell Failure, but the fact of the matter is that it basically cripples build viability.

[Griefmaker]

I agree that greensteel is pretty poor as it is. I would change it to +1 AC only though because I always felt it was too powerful before, especially with the multitude of buffs those classes can add to it and the fact that it's "mundane" equivalent is now end game for most.

But as Jack said, at the moment greensteel is not worthwhile.

[Cortex]

The AC bonus on the armor itself (not the shield) is pointless, it could be 0 and it would still be good, because of EMA. And shields are now +2 instead of +3.

[Astral]

I completely agree with the OP that in 9/10 cases greensteel will not worth it and cripple most builds and complement none. Bards cant even take Auto Still Spell feats to negate the remaining ASF and mages just better off with a full plate if they already spend feats on auto still spell. The ac bonus on the greensteel is useless to mages as they get +5 from EMA so the whole story behind this update is a very painful nerf to the ground for all melee bards.

[Lorkas]

It's still good for warlocks, but yea.

To be honest, I like mages in armor, but I don't think it's great for the setting if it's just the norm that all mages are in armor. There should be some kind of requirement within the build aside from just getting the proficiency in it, so that not every single mage is fully armored all the time.

I agree that 2 epic feats is probably too much for a mage being able to wear armor, but what is an appropriate cost? If Still Spell just gave an automatic -10% ASF on armor and shields rather than requiring Auto-Still II for that level of ASF reduction, would it still be too high a cost?

[Cortex]

Warlocks benefit more from adamantine or mithril due to damage immunities and higher AC.

[Lorkas]

Ah, I see. For some reason I misremembered warlocks as getting -10% ASF rather than -20%.

[Astral]

Ah, I see. For some reason I misremembered warlocks as getting -10% ASF rather than -20%.

Because, as it seems to me, the dev intentionally did not want Warlocks to get hit hard by the greensteel update, which makes it all the more confusing to me.

[Cortex]

They were hit by the update in a way. The ASF stacks and they could use a large shield and then heavier armor that they would otherwise not be able to use.

[Peppermint]

Indeed, warlocks were hit too. Losing access to adamantine plate is pretty big.

But to be candid: we nerfed greensteel because it didn't jive with our vision of mages. We didn't want literally any mage to be able to toss on some armor and go. We like* our mages squishy, and we wanted to be able to balance them around that assumption.

Is greensteel too weak right now? Quite possibly. But the alternative was to remove it, which we genuinely considered. We kept the nerfed version in as a compromise.

That said, I'd be all for making it more accessible to, say, a Spellsword-type path. That feels fitting.

(* I'm using present tense here, though possibly the new team feels differently.)

[RedGiant]

To be sure, this affects no mage I ever played, because to either spend precious feats on wearing armor or to lose caster levels to be marginal at fighting was never worth it.

I think this really mostly affects bards and multi-classers.

I would also add that multi-classing in this fashion was made attractive due to the substantial nerfs to entire lines of sorcerer and wizard spells. Wild Mage has helped make pure classing somewhat viable again, but...still need help IMO. This is probably another conversation.

[Cortex]

To be sure, this affects no mage I ever played, because to either spend precious feats on wearing armor or to lose caster levels to be marginal at fighting was never worth it.

I think this really mostly affects bards and multi-classers.

I would also add that multi-classing in this fashion was made attractive due to the substantial nerfs to entire lines of spells for sorcerers and wizards. Wild Mage has helped make pure classing somewhat viable again, but...still need help IMO. This is probably another conversation.

Getting 54~ AC just with a 3 bard dip is pretty worth it in exchange of mere 3 CL. No longer possible unless you spend feats on Still Armor though.

[Trunx]

I would also add that multi-classing in this fashion was made attractive due to the substantial nerfs to entire lines of sorcerer and wizard spells. Wild Mage has helped make pure classing somewhat viable again, but...still need help IMO. This is probably another conversation.

Which spells were nerfed that would've made it even marginally more optimal to stay pure classed had they not been nerfed?

[JediMindTrix]

But to be candid: we nerfed greensteel because it didn't jive with our vision of mages.

Greensteel = Jive Turkey

[Prestige]

The thing about Greensteel in its current state is that it inordinately benefits old, well-connected players who have/had several old characters in the stuff who can mule it endlessly between their characters.

Compromise idea: Make each piece of Greensteel confer a CON penalty per piece in exchange for 0 spell failure. Mages, an already low HP class, trade AC for HP. They remain reasonably incapable of standing and fighting (30 HP makes a big difference on a mage, imo) but it allows some level of agency with respects to building an alternate form of defense.

[RedGiant]

As above, I would be for reverting greensteel as I think it mostly benefits bard and multi-class spell-sword types. Was there a problem I was unaware of with a bevy of Arcane-tower wizards walking around with a large shields?

I never had a thematic problem with old greensteel either, always considering it a feat of arcane "engineering'; i.e. using limited quantities (nothing heavier than medium armors and large shields) of an exotic metal.

[Cortex]

As above, I would be for reverting greensteel as I think it mostly benefits bard and multi-class spell-sword types. Was there a problem I was unaware of with a bevy of Arcane-tower wizards walking around with a large shields?

I never had a thematic problem with old greensteel either, always considering it a feat of arcane "engineering'; i.e. using limited quantities (nothing heavier than medium armors and large shields) of an exotic metal.

Greensteel on bards is/was a "lazy" way to play them, they underperform with greensteel. Wearing adamantine with still spell benefits them much more.

Meanwhile, a wizard could get 54 AC, and sorcadins could get +60 AC.

[Peppermint]

As a side note, bards can still wear Greensteel. On a class that primarily casts just before an engagement, 5% ASF isn't going to cripple you.

[SwampFoot]

As a side note, bards can still wear Greensteel. On a class that primarily casts just before an engagement, 5% ASF isn't going to cripple you.

It does make certain spells unreliable to use at all. War Cry and Confusion can be decent crowd control but a 10% failure means they are unlikely to be used. Short term spells tend to be ignored as well now by bards that aren't DEX based. At least, I ignore them now.

Keep it on par with Mithral for AC (add a resource or two of mithral to balance it) and return it to 0% failure. Remove the breastplate (because heavy armor should require more investment for casters to use).