Buff pre Epic Mummy Dust undead

[susitsu]

This one is a very simple topic. Necromancy is highly unviable before this point. As a fort save reliant spell school, it's already brutally shafted enough by the build and PvM enviroment of Arelith, the final tier of mummies are bad, and the only good undead summon is vampires.

Would also be nice if wizards/sorcerers could cash in on getting out three undead after devoting an epic feat to it. That's a considerable amount of devotion to suffering an inferior school. If anyone's wondering, I mean epic spell focus necromancy.

As I mentioned in many threads recently, necromancers literally default to elementals. I'd like to be able to actually go out with my undead before then.

Wights are especially frail and vanish more suddenly than you can do anything about as is.

Keep in mind that clerics also keep using elementals and do not even bother until epic mummy dust.

[Horselords]

Seconded. Damage is decent (although the 2attacks/creature is bad).
But still they are unusable reliably in pve.

Then let's factor in:

1) Cost of opportunity. Why summon undeads when you can have an elemental with similar immunities but so much more (#waterelemental).

2) RP stygma cost. The idea of corruption in standard fantasy and stuff is to receive POWA in exchange for being wicked and shunned. Right now you cripple yourself, in exchange for being wicked and shunned. That does not seem right. Getting exiled from entire settlements is a possible result of being seen with undeads (on top of pvp), if I am to go forth and summon those pesky bones, it should at least be worth it, otherwise let's just stick to elementals: It's better, safer, and accepted.

3) Changes to raise/dieing is not an incentive to go the much weaker mechanical choice

Add this all up and you end up using undead either very seldomly or only because it fits your character, but there is no mechanical power to back it up (and YES this is a bad thing. Rp does not work in a vacuum).

Bonus consideration: Make summon shadow from SD and the epic double from illusion school, stackable with undeads/summons and not take the same slot.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

[susitsu]

2) RP stygma cost. The idea of corruption in standard fantasy and stuff is to receive POWA in exchange for being wicked and shunned. Right now you cripple yourself, in exchange for being wicked and shunned. That does not seem right. Getting exiled from entire settlements is a possible result of being seen with undeads (on top of pvp), if I am to go forth and summon those pesky bones, it should at least be worth it, otherwise let's just stick to elementals: It's better, safer, and accepted.

Yes, thank you. I really like to actually see this point being brought up. It just...doesn't fall in line.

[Nitro]

I can second this, even as a palemaster it's easier to just use an elemental (water for sustain, fire for DPS in a party, earth for all-round combatant and air for silence-rushing casters), when soloing they tend to last longer since anything that can take down the elemental in one encounter can easily take out 1 or 2 of the undead which you have to resummon all of them if you just want one back. And in a party situation, people get annoyed at 3 undead clogging up the already limited front-line space, at which point you either go for the single high-level undead, or realize that an elemental of equal level outperforms it and summon that instead.

Add on the fact that a wizard gets a newer and better summon every 2 levels while the undead summons improve at 11, 16 and on acquisition of mummy dust. So you end up with them being strong on the level you get them, but having to really struggle to contribute on the levels before you get your next bump in power, which feels especially painful around level 7-10 and 18-21.

[susitsu]

which feels especially painful around level 7-10 and 18-21.

Keep in mind that unless you don't take skill dump levels, you won't be getting EMD until 24.

[Peppermint]

I'd tend to agree that undead summons could use more tiers to smooth out progression. Some number tweaks might be needed as well; I'll have to take a look.

However:

1) I disagree that undead summons should be more powerful on account of being less accepted than the alternative. Bear in mind that while this may be true in Cordor, this certainly isn't true in, say, the underdark. As a consequence, my personal philosophy is that alignment/roleplay should not have any bearing on game balance.

2) I'd be open to adding Create Greater Undead to the mage spellbook (when/if we go full hak). I'd also be open to adding Create Greater Undead as a ESF: Necromancy bonus spell in the nearer future (on a cooldown, obviously). However, the animation spells were retooled to summon swarms for three reasons, (1) so that higher level animation spells have more impact than lower level ones (whereas before they were all the same, which felt kind of goofy), (2) to allow necromancers to create undead packs with a single spell, which to me feels 'smoother', (3) to allow for all undead to occupy summon slots, resulting in fewer mechanical oddities. I'd really rather not revert this.

[susitsu]

In regards to 1. I feel like it was just more of an expression that it's silly that you're delving into dark magic just to be weaker than a regular ol' conjurer.

I actually really like the ESF idea. That's a good idea. Even once per rest would be really nice. It's good to hear you'll be looking into them. They simply feel weak at all junctures of the game, whichever stream you pick, until EMD.

[Hunter548]

In regards to 1. I feel like it was just more of an expression that it's silly that you're delving into dark magic just to be weaker than a regular ol' conjurer.

I think Pep's point is that the three undead should be equal to the regular ol' conjuration. Not better, but not worse either.

[Peppermint]

Basically.

Well, caveat: I'm fine with necromancy summons being a little weaker than conjuration summons, provided two things are true: 1) non-summoning necromancy spells are generally more useful than non-summoning conjuration spells, 2) a focused necromancer's undead summons are generally more useful than their unfocused conjuration summons.

In other words, necromancy trading in weaker (but not weak) summons for stronger utility would also be totally fine.

But yeah. That's just nitpicky. I agree necromancy summons need a look.

[-XXX-]

IMO we're on a same page here, but just for the sake of argument:

1) non-summoning necromancy spells are generally more useful than non-summoning conjuration spells

As far as arcane spells go (going through the list of viable spells that care about spell focus) we've got like grease, stinking cloud, flame arrow, evard's black tentacles and cloudkill vs. vampiric touch, negative energy burst, fear, finger of death, undeath to death, horrid wilting and wail of the banshee. Comparing those, as a rule of a thumb conjuration spells while being lower level generally offer a good "bang for your buck" ratio, while offering more castings per rest without consuming any spell components. The listed necromancy spells are generally higher level and while undoubtedly powerful, many of them get outclassed by lower level spells when clever use of metamagic feats enters the equation (for example: compare empowered evard's vs horrid wilting).
As far as cleric spell list goes... I'd argue that max DC storm of vengeance trumps slay living, circle of doom and destruction, but that's just my opinion.

2) a focused necromancer's undead summons are generally more useful than their unfocused conjuration summons.

That's a nice sentiment, but... let's face it - arelith's power level of conjuration makes it almost a go-to choice as far as spell focusing feats go. Most caster builds focus in more than one spell school. Point being, when you're playing a necromancer, it's very likely that you will also be focusing in conjuration as well, in which scenario you might easily find yourself in situation when your conjuration summons are actually a better choice in most situations despite the fact that you wanted to use undead summons when you were entering your character concept stage.

[-Erevan-]

You are unhappy with the Undead Summons? Then you certainly haven't tried the summoning of a Cleric's death domain powers.. Every time I log onto him and see that domain powers, it feels like I took a gonne slug in the knee by myself.

[susitsu]

As a thought, perhaps ESF Necromancy could actually give you access to the final summoner tier, whereas EMD retains exactly what it is: A special and powerful summon spell which comes with an additional, and powerful undead.

This would provide a much cleaner progression and eliminate this silly situation where non-necromancers can casually EMD for very good undead summons.

[Peppermint]

So, here's what I'm planning:

I've a sheet here with 10 undead tiers per stream outlined (up from the previous five). I'll also be putting a bit of oomph into ESF Necromancy, in the form of an additional +1 to stats across the board (for a total of +4 compared to an unfocused necromancer). Finally, I intend to give mages Create Greater Undead as an ESF Necromancy perk.

I feel that should make progression feel a lot smoother, as well as make focused necromancers feel a little stronger than their unfocused counterparts.

This might take time. As y'all know, I work on Valve time when it comes to updates. But consider your concerns heard.

[-XXX-]

Awsome! Thx, appreciated ^.^

[susitsu]

Wonderful. My future necromancers especially appreciate it. Thank you very much, Peppermint.

[Aren]

So, here's what I'm planning:

Thanks bunches!

[Horselords]

Thanks for the info pep!

Bonus round: the announced Ghost stream several Years ago coule maybe bé à new Boon too? Juste sayin'!

[iria_huntress]

My only real problem with undead is there is no real reason to spell focus. Getting esf necromancy gives them 3 hit die? And 3 attack? So, for 3 extra feats, your undead are marginally stronger? So you really only take it for the DC's on your situational death magic. Otherwise you only need to take epic mummy dust.

I was looking forward to level scaling them at epic levels. Sadly that is not so...

[Astral]

I played a cleric to epics after the summons update and my two scents:
I used Create Greater Undead and got 3 mummies, they were quite decent but I don't have a comparison so I don't know really if they were strong enough for the lvl I had them (as I was playing a B-cleric and I only summoned them because RPed allowed it and I had no focuses in necromancy and I didn't relay on their power for PvE at all).

Then, a wizard summoned 3 mummies as well, he had GFS, his mummies were only slightly stronger. and he also got the same amount of summons I had (which is intentional I know, but it was odd to see none the less) and I really didn't feel a significant power difference between my summons and the mage with the focuses. Shouldn't the focuses effect the amount of summons, as it used to be? I say this because my cleric had absolutely no interest in further studying necromancy to the roots and the next guy summoned only slightly stronger summons after years (2 feats in this case) of study.

[AllTheWorld]

Pale Master can't take the spell focuses, unless taking them on spellcasting levels. It might be worth keeping this in mind if the spell focuses are considered for an upgrade to the undead, as PM are supposed to be the 'masters' at this after all.

Could potentially do something like granting whatever bonus per spell focus taken, or per 5 levels PM.

[Dr_Hazard89]

It might be worth keeping this in mind if the spell focuses are considered for an upgrade to the undead, as PM are supposed to be the 'masters' at this after all

Are they? I thought they were focused on making themselves more undead-ish, not on summoning/animating.

[Nitro]

It might be worth keeping this in mind if the spell focuses are considered for an upgrade to the undead, as PM are supposed to be the 'masters' at this after all

Are they? I thought they were focused on making themselves more undead-ish, not on summoning/animating.

It's both, in both NWN and P&P they get several bonuses to themselves (undead armor, deathless touch, deathless mastery etc) and to their ability to raise the dead (undead cohort, summon undead, summon greater undead etc) at the cost of spellcasting abilities. The class is pretty much the premiere necromancer class so long as Dread Necromancer isn't available.

[Peppermint]

Then, a wizard summoned 3 mummies as well, he had GFS, his mummies were only slightly stronger. and he also got the same amount of summons I had (which is intentional I know, but it was odd to see none the less) and I really didn't feel a significant power difference between my summons and the mage with the focuses.

+3 vs. +0 on every modifier is pretty huge, and I've already promised to bump that up to a +4 to give epic focus a bit more oomph. If you don't believe me, try taking a fighter and swapping out all of their armor/weapons for mundane gear and see how they fare. Or just pit a focused necromancer's summons against an unfocused one's in a battle royal and see which ones win.

The problem isn't that necromancers' summons aren't better than non-necromancers', per se. The problem is that the difference between a a necromancer that focuses a lot (i.e. epic focus) and one that focuses a bit (i.e. greater focus) isn't all that much (i.e. +3 vs. +2). It makes the epic payoff feel rather marginal.

[Brandon Steel]

I have to say that at least at the lowest tier the undead are very underwhelming in regards to regular summon creature.

I have both GSF Necro and Conj and the summons you get at summon creature 3&4 are marginally better than undead you get from the lowest tier of their summons, which is a 5th circle spell while the others are 3rd and 4th respectively. To even get to a point where summon creature 3 MAY be equal to it you'd have to have create undead which is even higher and even then it's very, very underwhelming, I don't even beleive Wiz gets summon greater undead. It gets slightly better with the vampire stream but it's still just not as good and kind of disappointing that mummy stream is basically useless.

I suppose Necro Cleric is slightly better off but it's kind of lame that Necro Wiz is pretty well borked, and I would imagine clerics would still be better off with summon creature than animate dead/create undead.

Necromancer is by far my favorite class thematically so I'm overjoyed to see it getting some consideration. Crossing fingers to see it relatively soon!

[susitsu]

Nah, vampires are amazing. They're in a great place. Mummies are basically useless tho