Monsters and Cities

[PresidentCthulhu]

Monster races in the UD are accustomed to constantly work together and cooperate with other races. This is the cosmopolitan Skullportesque thing many of you mentioned already. Since it is a thing and it can exist in such an environment then the surface's harsh judgement on them is a bit hard to support that is my point. If there is no tension between races/sites then there is absolutely no reason to uphold it either. I support the more traditional tension between surface and the underdark, it just doesn't feel too fair currently especially when I see topics like this appearing.

I have no agenda against outcasts and I'm happy to play with them it just doesn't seem fair to the other monster races who suffer from being barred from half the world (for obvious reasons in a normal environemnt). In theory outcasts are monsters themselves as it is stated on the site too. Sorry, but surfacers coming down (even from Wharftown without being outcasts technically) is rubbish. There is the slave/outcats mechnaics for that and if they decide to live down there and mingle with darkers they literally should become outcasts (meaning they should be banned from the surface like every monsters). Also surfacers really should not just stroll down like they own the place as it tends to happen.

There is two side of the coin always and saying you can tell them apart by them not knowing undercommon is not even a half-truth. If someone creates an outcast human he can technically go anywhere. How do you tell it's not a surfacer? On the other way around if a surfacer comes down the only way to tell it apart is the language (provided he doesn't already learned it). Even then nowadays surfacers are not driven from Andunor even when discovered. This technically means what we see down there is that they can roam freely while we can't.

Maybe if the outcasts would be given a tag stating their status, like slaves do and maybe if surfacers would not act like Andunor is just another city they can freely visit then this whole topic would seem more fair.

As for goblins: It is a traditional underdark race that lives in large numbers everywhere, including and especially the underdark. Also purely from mechanical standpoint monster races (including goblins) have only a single city that they are allowed.

[Mr_Rieper]

I personally think that Outcasts should have an automatic line in their description which identifies them as outcasts OR the NPCs in towns will identify them as outcasts when you use -investigate on them.

Outcasts are meant to be people that are so universally reviled they have no choice but to live in the Underdark. You would think if somebody was hated enough to be unwelcome in towns then other characters would be able to recognise them as outcasts as well. If Laurik can do it, why can't player characters?

It might seem unfair, but if you think about it, it really does make sense. Outcasts shouldn't be attacked or harassed when walking the surface, like the other Underdark races, but you should definitely feel uncomfortable when they are getting involved in a surface town's politics. That is, after all, against the point of being an Outcast.

[Lorkas]

An outcast line would be great not just for surfacers being able to react appropriately to outcasts, but for UDers being able to react appropriately to non-outcasts. Non-outcasts shouldn't necessarily be driven out immediately or anything like that, but someone who is an outcast has been living in the UD for awhile (long enough to learn undercommon), which has implications on how a UDer is likely to react to them.

[Nitro]

That sounds like a nice idea, and enough bluff could disguise it much like the slave tag for slaves, but still leaving them open for discovery from keen-eyed characters.

[Mr_Rieper]

I'd just like to add that I think if such a line were to be added to their descriptions, that it would only be visible if they were not disguised or their disguise was broken. In other words, their outcast status would be hidden by disguising or pretending to be somebody else, as would make sense.

Currently it feels like the Outcast background is just a mechanical thing, with no basis in roleplay. Which is bad. The logic is that if NPCs can tell if somebody is an Outcast and therefore block them from buying property, using the boat and signing up for elections, then PCs should have ways of identifying them as well.

The lines are blurred currently. Non-outcasts are trying to fit in as Outcasts so they can RP in the Underdark and soak up that sweet xp. Outcasts hang around Surface settlements like it ain't no big deal. I'm fairly sure this is completely opposite to what the Outcast background was aiming to do. It should be the other way around. So therefore I propose that Outcasts be easily identified if they are NOT disguised. Likewise, disguised surfacers can still pass themselves off as Outcasts if they are disguised as well, and can speak Undercommon. Everybody wins, with enough effort and roleplay.

Being an Outcast is basically like a soft exile. You're being shunned from society. I think we should try to incorporate that into our roleplay, instead of treating it like its a mechanical ticket into the UD.

[Durvayas]

Another suggestion to remedy the issue of too many outcasts or poorly played outcasts would be to lock them behind a normal reward and/or a DM token.

As is, I don't see a lot of actual outcasts. I see a lot of surface PCs that use the UD as a leveling ground, take outcast so they can use the hub portal, and then piss off to the surface for their actual RP. The inability to vote topside or own a quarter is a bit of a joke as far as consequences of being an outcast is concerned. They are hardly 'cast out' of anything unless the PC has done something heinous to the point that a lynch mob WILL attack them if they return. A friend of mine said recently "The only real outcasts in Andunor are the ones that RPed to get it." I'm rather inclined to agree.

Perfect example of a great outcast who can't return to the surface without risking death: Sarina Dragonsong

There are others, but unfortunately, I don't think I could possibly say there are more actual outcasts who RP it as such over surface PC's sneaking about or outcasts that literally live in the sunlight.

Andunor is only a monster city if the DMs enforce you have to be playing a monster(in all real senses) to live there.

[Sab1]

Monster races in the UD are accustomed to constantly work together and cooperate with other races. This is the cosmopolitan Skullportesque thing many of you mentioned already. Since it is a thing and it can exist in such an environment then the surface's harsh judgement on them is a bit hard to support that is my point. If there is no tension between races/sites then there is absolutely no reason to uphold it either. I support the more traditional tension between surface and the underdark, it just doesn't feel too fair currently especially when I see topics like this appearing.

I have no agenda against outcasts and I'm happy to play with them it just doesn't seem fair to the other monster races who suffer from being barred from half the world (for obvious reasons in a normal environemnt). In theory outcasts are monsters themselves as it is stated on the site too. Sorry, but surfacers coming down (even from Wharftown without being outcasts technically) is rubbish. There is the slave/outcats mechnaics for that and if they decide to live down there and mingle with darkers they literally should become outcasts (meaning they should be banned from the surface like every monsters). Also surfacers really should not just stroll down like they own the place as it tends to happen.

There is two side of the coin always and saying you can tell them apart by them not knowing undercommon is not even a half-truth. If someone creates an outcast human he can technically go anywhere. How do you tell it's not a surfacer? On the other way around if a surfacer comes down the only way to tell it apart is the language (provided he doesn't already learned it). Even then nowadays surfacers are not driven from Andunor even when discovered. This technically means what we see down there is that they can roam freely while we can't.

Maybe if the outcasts would be given a tag stating their status, like slaves do and maybe if surfacers would not act like Andunor is just another city they can freely visit then this whole topic would seem more fair.

As for goblins: It is a traditional underdark race that lives in large numbers everywhere, including and especially the underdark. Also purely from mechanical standpoint monster races (including goblins) have only a single city that they are allowed.

You understand many UDers act as if the surface is a place they can freely visit with no fear, it goes both ways. Go look at the wharftown ruins. I believe a goblin even owns the ship. The UD city is a trade city so surfacers will be allowed there, its not meant to be a purely monster city.

[-XXX-]

Time to face reality. The drow are not a superpower, okay? The setting forces them to reinvent their cultural identity. That should be the essence driving drow RP, not futile attempts to recreate the messed-up society depicted in Drizzt books.

[Cerk Evermoore]

People confuse surface wilderness and cities. Goblins, gnolls, kobolds and orcs are all quite capable of existing on the surface. Most people do not have a problem with /wilderness encounters and if a goblin or gnoll wants to level on the surface it is not unreasonable from a lore perspective.

I guess Sibayad / Crow's Nest are the surface equivalents of Anduinor. So in reality it is not like Underdarkers only have one place they can go.

[Cortex]

It's also not unreasonable for the surfacer to try and cull the monster in the wilderness.