Update - Raising the dead

[MissEvelyn]

I think there's a broad misconception about something. Why is it wrong for a Cleric to use an altar that has been consecrated to another deity, specifically if that deity might be evil (but still of the same race)?
If it's REALLY so hard for a Cleric to pray at Umberlee's altar*, if it fills your Cleric with guilt, then move on and find another altar. It only makes SENSE that there's an altar of Umberlee if we're anywhere near the ocean (and Arelith is an archipelago, so go figure), and our characters shouldn't be so surprised. You can still ask your own deity for intervention.

The way I see it, this only PROMOTES even more RP. Maybe your nemesis, who happens to be a priestess or acolyte of Umberlee, sees you use their altar and reminds you of it when they one day need a favor.

So no, I don't think it's immersion-breaking at all. I think it ADDS to it. The change makes death much more meaningful, but perhaps even more impacting is how much clerics will become respected again. Clerics are SUPPOSED to be among the most respected and loved/feared people in the Forgotten Realms.


*And by the way, most people in FR recognize and offer their respects in prayers and coin to the Umberlee clergy before they undertake a journey on the sea. Yes, even good characters. Because they'd rather swallow their pride and survive the journey rather than anger the Sea Queen.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Can we give druids Raise Dead? I've never understood why they get all the Cure spells, but then it stops. I bet they could, at some point in discussion of old PnP, but they probably felt like that was stepping on the toes of clerics.

Could we do it now? It would be a nice little boon.

[kittenblackfriends]

Because it's not appropriate for druids to have Raise. They actually don't support it in their ethos! They get spells like reincarnation instead.

[susitsu]

And I really don't want to give druids the ability to cast reincarnation on here. Nor do I think the devs would have fun trying to code race roulette: The spell.

[kittenblackfriends]

Well. I just raised someone at a sacrificial altar. The first one we tested - in the Bendir Dales area - didn't seem to work. We prayed over several dozen ticks with no result, both while holding him and with the corpse dropped.

When we went to the Crags altar and placed the corpse down, he was up in ~2 prayer ticks. I noticed the corpse disappeared and thought my partner had accidently picked it up, but it was him getting raised!

[This is not for you.]

I think there's a broad misconception about something. Why is it wrong for a Cleric to use an altar that has been consecrated to another deity, specifically if that deity might be evil (but still of the same race)?
If it's REALLY so hard for a Cleric to pray at Umberlee's altar*, if it fills your Cleric with guilt, then move on and find another altar. It only makes SENSE that there's an altar of Umberlee if we're anywhere near the ocean (and Arelith is an archipelago, so go figure), and our characters shouldn't be so surprised. You can still ask your own deity for intervention.

The way I see it, this only PROMOTES even more RP. Maybe your nemesis, who happens to be a priestess or acolyte of Umberlee, sees you use their altar and reminds you of it when they one day need a favor.

So no, I don't think it's immersion-breaking at all. I think it ADDS to it. The change makes death much more meaningful, but perhaps even more impacting is how much clerics will become respected again. Clerics are SUPPOSED to be among the most respected and loved/feared people in the Forgotten Realms.


*And by the way, most people in FR recognize and offer their respects in prayers and coin to the Umberlee clergy before they undertake a journey on the sea. Yes, even good characters. Because they'd rather swallow their pride and survive the journey rather than anger the Sea Queen.

Okay. But what if I'm the fellow that's dead. What am I suppose to do by myself in the fuege plane for what may turn into an hour. If I respawn to save myself the trouble, I waste the cleric pc's time they put into trying to get me fixed.

Clerics are infact suppose to be powerful in the setting. And they already are one of the most powerful classes mechanically. No one is arguing this. And I'm also sure that if it comes to it, a cleric pc is going to buckle and try to save their pal and it'll be cool etc etc.

But if I'm a cleric of Torm I'll probably eat my own foot before I pray at an altar to Grummsh to save my paladin in arms. Sure, I can move onto another altar, but again, this is going to take another 30+minutes of travel, not including if I take my time to RP the whole time. This is all time our poor dead straw-man is waiting around in the fuege, by himself, doing nothing. That's lame man.

Fact. Mechanically trying to make a class more useful to earn 'respect' points does not help. If you want your PC to be respected, regardless of class race or social status, you need to earn it IC through writing. You shouldn't pick up a class and expect people to immediately be in awe. That's like playing a lone drow female claiming to be a matron of a house, and demanding people bow to you. That doesn't work. You need to earn your reputation IC, not expect it handed to you because of your character sheet.

[pigman]

why not roleplay it as "commandeering" the offensive altar to petition your own deity.

[Yma23]

It is possible to bend roleplay to let you prey to someone who your character would normally spit on. That's fine. But it doesn't really encourage the whole, 'sticking by your guns' type, doesn't encourage you to roleplay your character, more encourages you to do what is convenient.

Every adventure is not going to end in flowery success where everyone lives. You seem far too caught up on "Well what if something bad happens, then its going to inconvenience me."

I. Do. Not. Mind. Loosing. XP. To. Dying.

I do. Not Mind. Things. Going. Badly.

Full. Party. Wipes. Happen.

But they do not happen...

As much....

As me dying. Because I am not. That good. At PVE.

I am... now pay attention here.

I am.... Alright... with xp loss.

Repeat

I am alright with xp loss

Repeat

I am fine with xp loss.

This is cool. This is fine. This is awsome.

However.

There is more to adventuring. To grinding. To that sort of thing... than xp.

AGain I know this is a lot to take in. But please follow.

So when I get my very rare adventure, due to Real Life constrains (again, about once per rl month is average for me.)

During then I get to expereince a side of the server that isn't social roleplay.

And yes, a bit of xp is good, but mostly it's about the roleplay. Because you know, this is about adventuring.

Following so far? Good.

So, now there is a good chance that is going to be wrenched away from me, because I do not have the mandatory cleric.

This pisses me off.

It's not the dying so much.

It's not the XP loss.

It's the loss of a valuble aspect of Arelith life that sadly, due to RL constraints and my own principles (e.g. that I should try to roleplay my character) I loose out on.

And not just 'loose out a bit' but possibly 'loose out entirely.'

This royally upsets me and I'm really not sure it adds anything to 'realism' bar a whole lot of ooc frustration and/or people just respawnin, which is MORE immersion breaking IMO.

I want to play a bit of an adventurer
I want to go exciting places
Do exciting things
Kill monsters
In a party of people.

Why?

Because it's fun! Because that's an aspect of... Arelith.

I do not want to have that torn from me abruptly because the party didn't have a cleric, and because I didn't 'git gud.'

EDIT: I'm sorry this got rather vhement, but I'm trying to put across the core problem with this, which a lot of people are missing. It's not about build or mechanics, it's about screwing casual, none power gamers over very harshly.

[JediMindTrix]

Well shoot.
I guess rulings arn't common sense after all.

Seems like common sense to me.

[Irongron]

With things like this there is no right or wrong answer. Many players love this, some clearly do not.

Now while I'm in the former group here, I have accept those that are against raise a very valid concern.

Namely that parties will be forced to break part way through their gaming session, those that want to play together and see the story out. Sure they stay logged into the fugue waiting for their group to find an altar, but let's not kid ourselves; it may not be fun for either party, and entail waiting far longer than the 20 mins we just reverted from.

I don't want to shout the naysayers down, because we really are aware of this potential issue. For myself the part that concerns me is that adventurers might start 'playing it safe' again, opting to level in areas they're certain they won't be killed.

But as with other such changes we're not going to act on hypotheticals, but what we actually witness in game, and as admins we have agreed to watch this very closely.

My first line of consideration is simply upping the amount of altars, or raise scrolls that show up in chests, so that the effect can be mitigated if it proves necessary, but its not the only 'solution', a gift which allows a character that meets certain criteria to have a daily raise ability, an increase in the god-raise rate, there is a lot we can do.

First thing though, is to watch the impact of where we stand right now, not here on the forums, but in game.

[Dalenger]

I like the change. I think that the GP cost should be a bit less and the piety cost should be a bit less (though the whole system needs a bit of an update anyway, imo), but at the end of the day "oh shit Johnny's head just got torn from his shoulders" now actually means a little more than a minor GP inconvenience. I would love to see "being dead" a much bigger deal on the server.

On one hand, it blows that clerics are now a must-have for most parties. On the other hand, I would never run a P&P D&D game without a cleric, and with arelith's classes cleric is the only class that covers the entire priest/healer archtype. So yeah, they should be hella common. You would never go out on a serious adventure without a figher archtype, so why would you go out without a priest/healer?

My only major reservation is that parties below level 9 are now screwed. I like the smelling salts suggestion in the suggestion box to handle this.

Good job dev team!

[Dr_Hazard89]

Wait. What did I miss. Why isn't the cleric just casting raise dead?

My only problem with it is the gold cost to scribe. Seems a bit much.

[Skeletor]

Why not have raise dead scrolls have an incremental cost per scroll scribed that resets after server reset ?

So 1st scroll costs normal price
2nd costs +500 gold
3rd costs +1000 gold
4th costs +2000 gold
And so on until max price 10.000 gold

Would that be posible ? So you CAN write some scrolls every reset, but you can't dump 60 scrolls on a shop and call it a day.

[This is not for you.]

I will accept our almighty overlord's terms and elect to grump about this quietly from my den of unnamed notepad ++ tabs until a time comes when my dooms-day prophesying is needed again.

[Kimura]

So like... Will pve reflect this change? Cause this will inevitably continue the trend of taking the safe route on optimal building. No one is going to want to try out a less than optimal build that is going to struggle and die even more.

I like seeing people make use of the full capacity of unique class combos nwn/arelith has. And I also do the want to see people being excluded for being a liability to a party.

On the other hand. I could see priestly rp of having traveling temples. Or being present in settlements more. Even though this feels like someone was playing alot of dragon quest.

[susitsu]

I think it's definitely not about building, and much more about the safe grinding route where the server will end up being largely untouched except in very specific areas.

AKA people will stop actually adventuring.

[Sfoxwood]

Liking the new tweak so far, but havent seen it all. That said, drastic step up from what it was. The new way gives death a consequence and makes it so others have to go talk to a healer of some sort. Creates Rp and a little quest. No complaints, would die again.

[a1b2]

The number one thing every single player on arelith is giving is TIME

This change is killing time.

I don't care that it "could increase rp" when it can NEVER increase rp for me when I only have 2 hours (if i'm lucky) to play one evening and an hour of that is just trying to get a party together to go to a level appropriate area. But if 10 minutes in (or 30 or 40 it almost doesn't matter) someone with a squishier build gets wtfrolled due to a hiding monster, or a sneak attack, or bad placement, or a combo of hundreds of other reasons, they are not going to get a simple rez because now it is ether not possible (no cleric/items to rez) or its is too expensive and would cost MORE then what the entire group made for the whole trip. Instead, someone dying ends up canceling the whole trip and your limited game time is shot.

This also kills courtesy rezes, discourages those who would normally actually take the time/effort to rez others when they find a body out adventuring as they may not have the funds/time to so, and ruins the already difficult mistaken auto hit kills. (dont say it doesn't happen. It's happened 3 times in my sight. twice by me and once to me(I felt totally horrible but couldn't do anything but rez and tell them, lets rp it out or ignore the fact that you slapped me and the AI Stomped your head into the ground cause of a crit)

[MissEvelyn]

It's almost as if there's an entitlement hanging in the air. As if we're ENTITLED to what once was. We're not.

Some servers (and this server in the past!) have harsh and severe penalties on death. Some even have permadeath after a certain amount of deaths.
If anything, Arelith's death system is one of the most forgiving out there. I died last Saturday while in a dungeon with people. It did take 10-15 minutes to bring me back, but that's okay. It actually led to some very interesting RP.

I remember back in the day there was a page on the website that was titled "When bad things happen to good adventurers". Great words therein! But the center of the message was: Take it in stride. A change happens that seems to favor your situation less? Take it in stride! Don't let it stop you from having fun.

This server is constantly changing, constantly being updated, patched, etc etc. It's like its own game now with patches and everything. I'm surprised that Staff hasn't started their update posts with "Patch 6.12" or something like that.
But this server is constantly changing. Nothing remains static and the same. That goes for features that you may or may not like. Like Death. No one likes death, but no one likes a death with no consequence either. So there had to be a compromise. This is the compromise that we see.

[Tetra]

.

[JediZero]

It's almost as if there's an entitlement hanging in the air. As if we're ENTITLED to what once was. We're not.

At the same time, I can recognize that the server wouldn't exist without the efforts of the devs. . .but it also wouldn't exist without the playerbase. It's that whole 'If a tree falls and there's nobody to hear it, does it make a sound?'

If the devs make a server, but nobody is playing on it, is there really a server?

Point I'm trying to make is that yes. We should trust that the Devs have a bigger view, but at the same time the devs should recognize that our feedback is valid as well, and just because someone has a different opinion doesn't automatically make their opinion invalidated. objectively I'm willing to give this a shot, but then again I don't regularly go onto Arelith to go adventuring. This update doesn't really apply to me because that's not what I really get on Arelith. Therefore I'm deferring to the people it *does* impact, namely the people who do want to go adventuring and have fun that way. The people who want to hop on and not have to hope that X is online in order to go and do something.

[One Two Three Five]

I adventure all the time and it hasn't hurt me none. Granted, 10k doesn't seem like that much after level 6 or so. I was gonna do something clever with spoiler tags and the word 'favored soul' showing up between other words of the statement 'It's just a pity there's nothing other than clerics with raise dead' but it looked like straight garbage so I'm just going to repeat favored soul over and over till I feel better.

However, I will say: With the constant reassurance of Road Altars and suchlike being added, I don't see this being a problem, and it's much easier to swallow than the multiple thousands of XP loss death incurred back in the day. People will get used to it, and eventually the players and devs will find an equilibrium wherein death is still Something, but there's enough altars, looted raise stuff, etc, to make it not the end of the whole world.

[Astral]

It's almost as if there's an entitlement hanging in the air. As if we're ENTITLED to what once was. We're not.

Some servers (and this server in the past!) have harsh and severe penalties on death. Some even have permadeath after a certain amount of deaths.
If anything, Arelith's death system is one of the most forgiving out there. I died last Saturday while in a dungeon with people. It did take 10-15 minutes to bring me back, but that's okay. It actually led to some very interesting RP.

I remember back in the day there was a page on the website that was titled "When bad things happen to good adventurers". Great words therein! But the center of the message was: Take it in stride. A change happens that seems to favor your situation less? Take it in stride! Don't let it stop you from having fun.

This server is constantly changing, constantly being updated, patched, etc etc. It's like its own game now with patches and everything. I'm surprised that Staff hasn't started their update posts with "Patch 6.12" or something like that.
But this server is constantly changing. Nothing remains static and the same. That goes for features that you may or may not like. Like Death. No one likes death, but no one likes a death with no consequence either. So there had to be a compromise. This is the compromise that we see.

I want to echo this one. Pretty much everything here.

My personal comparison is League of legends and all the league-of-legends-ish mechanical changes I see here more and more. I love it. The way our devs manipulate the values and rules of different effects and attributes reminds me a lot of league of legends (maybe its just me I dunno). A game that evolves keeps the player learning and adapting. By the time we decide if the change to raise dead is good or bad, there might be so many other things we need to learn that it doesn't really matter.

[susitsu]

Okay, but I'm still finding the whole 10k scrolls thing to be immensely unappealing for the sake of roleplay and letting people actually get to roleplay instead of being in the death plane.

...and then comes the piety cost that literally eats your scrolls if you don't have enough. That was a nice 10k that just disappeared.

If I wasn't running with a well-prepared crew, every time someone died, they just got to lose out on RPing and sit around and do nothing. I don't understand how in any world you people can defend that. That just sounds literally insane to me.

[MissEvelyn]

Okay, but I'm still finding the whole 10k scrolls thing to be immensely unappealing for the sake of roleplay and letting people actually get to roleplay instead of being in the death plane.

...and then comes the piety cost that literally eats your scrolls if you don't have enough. That was a nice 10k that just disappeared.

If I wasn't running with a well-prepared crew, every time someone died, they just got to lose out on RPing and sit around and do nothing. I don't understand how in any world you people can defend that. That just sounds literally insane to me.

A low level today can easily make that amount of money. With metal scraps to sell, food to sell (this one doesn't give much tbh), pelts to sell, not to mention all the gemstones and jewelry, 10k isn't so hard to come by, even if you're a low level.

It wasn't like back in the day when 9 out of 10 mobs dropped nothing but junk. Nowadays making gold is so easy that even I, someone who dreads grinding, knows how to do it.

I honestly don't think that the cost of gold should be associated with RP directly. No one is complaining that taking a trip by boat from Cordor to Wharftown (too soon, I know) costs almost 2 months of a commoner's wage. And if you want to go further than that, you better pay up!

Raise Dead SHOULD be expensive. It's death we're dealing with here. While a bit more inconvenient, IMO it's still fairly easy to raise a dead friend. You don't even need a scroll anymore, so the changes even it out.

Buff or Nerf? I'd say it's an adjustment.