Weapon Variety Discussion

[Lorkas]

You can probably pick up 5 AC by being DEX based rather than STR based on a generic build on Arelith, but then you're also losing 1 AC by not taking as many fighter levels if you use StealthyKraken's example build there (losing 9 AC from not wearing full plate and the fighter's +1 to helmet AC at level 15, vs. gaining your DEX bonus to AC which is probably +14). However, you also have a whole heck of a lot less HP and AB since the only way to increase your damage as a DEXer is to take tons of assassin or rogue levels (or to a lesser extent SD) for sneak attack damage, which many mobs are outright immune to and is situational even on susceptible mobs.

In terms of gonne use, this is not a serious balance: a bit extra AB in the rare cases you have to use a gonne against a PM, versus permanent extra damage on every attack made in the entire game? Gonne use vs. PMs doesn't even register on the scale you have to use to talk about how great STR adding to damage on every hit is.

Like I said, I think that full DEX mod to all damage is too much, but it's definitely true that DEX builds are way behind STR builds in terms of what they can do now--STR builds get more AB, comparable AC (maybe 4 less at the most, and many STR builds can equalize it or surpass it, especially if the DEXers want to dual wield to try to make up some of the damage lost for not being STRey. Plus, many STR based builds can use IE and still have as much AB as the DEX build would have in regular expertise, due to the extra AB), less HP, less DI, less discipline (the skill deemed absolutely essential by most) and are down a whole feat since they have to take weapon finesse.

The only advantages for the DEXers that warrant a serious mention in this discussion are Epic Dodge (which exacerbates many of the aforementioned problems in order to allow access to it) and stealth, which are amazing to be fair, but not enough to equalize the builds. When I play DEX based, I do it because I want a stealther, not because it's as good as STR based in a fight (or in a resource collection run... gods it is awful to remember that carrying capacity is a thing in this game when I don't play a STR based character).

[Hunter548]

Why do you lose 9 AC from fullplate, exactly?

Dexers can get decent AB too, it's worth noting; A dex WM will have (about) the same ab as a strength WM. Dual weilders and monks will have less, sure, but that's a factor of being mostly 3/4th ab classes, not anything to do with being dex-based in and of itself. You can get more than enough discipline and HP on a dexer, too.

[Lorkas]

For simplicity I subtracted the 8 base and 1 DEX from full plate (9 total), then added the full DEX bonus. You could also conceive of it as just losing the 8 base from full plate and then gaining your DEX mod -1... you just can't forget that 1 point of your DEX mod was already counting when you count up the AC.

Sure, you could take what's essentially a STR build and then just make it DEX instead to get the same AB, but then its damage is going to be absolutely pitiful. The loss of so much damage is absolutely not worth the mere 4 AC you can gain out of it, considering how much longer you're going to take to kill things.

You can get more than enough discipline and HP on a dexer

This is just about precisely like saying you can get more than enough parry on a STR-er. Technically true, but it involves ugly tradeoffs that aren't being mentioned. More for a STR parry user certainly, but ugly ones nonetheless that don't work for every build.

And "enough" HP, okay, but not as much as a STR based character who doesn't have to go deep into low-HP classes to get above garbage tier damage.

[Shadowy Reality]

Dex builds also go down with a Balagorn's potion, which makes their AC drop drastically.

[Ebonstar]

The only change that I see needs to be made is that a build that has to take no special feats to use their weapon of choice, should not be more powerful than those who spend a feat to gain specialty.

rapier/scim WM builds should be seen as passe, when compared to exotic WM builds because the latter actually had to spend time and effort to gain the use of their chosen weapon, be it a Kukri, Katana, Dwarven Waraxe, Dire Mace, etc.

[msterswrdsmn]

There isn't a huge difference with on-paper stats between STR and DEX based builds; DEX tends to require another source of damage, which means different building requirements, but there isn't a sweeping gap between the two. They just excel at different things.

STR vs DEX doesn't really have a huge impact on weapons that need a boost either, unless its a non-finessable weapon. And even then, the issue needing to be addressed is with the subpar weapon, rather than the build using it.

I can only think of few weapons that don't really fit in with either, like thrown weapons or crossbows with high mighty properties, which require STR to deal damage, but DEX to aim properly. Or double weapons, which require a high DEX to get the dual wielding feats, but a main focus in STR to get damage/AB (double swords/axes/dire maces), which leads to some pretty punishing stat splitting.

[JediZero]

Y'know, in 2E there was a soft bonus to certain types of armors.

For instance leather armor was weak to piercing weapons. Studded leather armor was less so, but still had an AC penalty against it. meanwhile full plate/halfplate had bonuses against everything, but a blunt weapon could damage the person wearing it much easier.

Making it so that certain types of armor have different resistances, say full plate has like 20% resistance against piercing would be a decent idea, along with a penalty vs blunt. Either a -2 AC vs blunt, or +20% damage from blunt.

[SwampFoot]

I think changing armor to have greater/lesser resistances would primarily effect PvE and not weapon choices by PCs. There are tons of blunt using enemies round the server. Adding to the loot matrix certain weapons or making some of the lesser used vastly easier to craft could help the more RP minded characters to choose some of these.

Short of adding damage or nerfing the more popular weapons, no one that wants mechanical advantage is ever stepping away from the norm. Personally, I'd rather see RP boons to using the lesser weapons rather than mechanical.

[Hunter548]

How do you even give an RP boon to a dude using a light hammer, though?

The problem, to my mind, that comes with "Adding a lot of DI vs slashing" or "Remove 18-20" or w/e is that you end up with another "top dog" weapon. Unless the problem is specifically scimitars, rather than that scimitars are statistically better than everything, then all this sort of thing does is change what the top weapon is, and kick the problem down the road.

[Durvayas]

I think the problem is not that scimmys and rapiers are better than everything, so much as scimmy's and rapiers being better than everything by a signifigant margin.

[SwampFoot]

Look at the new versatility with Bastard Sword. One handed, great damage Two hand better damage. I had a lot of fun being able to do that. What are some ways we can apply that thinking to lesser used weapons? Certain bludgeoning weapons having a small chance to temporarily "break" armor and applying a negative to AC? Piercing weapons that act like called shot: leg? Slashing weapons that act like Called shot arm?

Not saying these are great examples, but certainly thinking outside the crit and damage range would be preferable than across the board changes.

[gilescorey]

I think the problem is not that scimmys and rapiers are better than everything, so much as scimmy's and rapiers being better than everything by a signifigant margin.

The significant margin is only really significant on Weapon Masters, or any other class that scales really well with critical hits such as smiters. On most every other class the difference is there, but it's not huge enough to get up in arms about in my opinion.

For example, a forty six AB warrior with a longsword does, on average, 235 damage per round. The identical warrior with scimitar feats instead would do 255 damage per round. That twenty damage is hardly the gargantuan difference that's so often a point of contention unless you throw in, say, more threat range and a bigger multiplier... or six Great Smite feats.



But anyway, onto more pertinent subjects. I've never found the fact that a character uses a scimitar, or a rapier, or any other "optimal" weapon to really disparage their roleplay unless other people made a specific point of contention over it, and that was always with a really forced and obvious OOC streak of motivation in doing so - and then, is it really the scimitar/rapier/kukri/scythe-wielder's roleplay being disparaged?

I once travelled with a character who was a scythe weaponmaster; his aim was no more malign than "I want to see big numbers pop up over monster heads," yet I was amazed at how many snarky comments about how farming implements and such got tossed around. His RP was what it was, and beyond aforementioned commentary from certain folks, it would have been so whether he was using a greatsword, a mace, or whatever other weapon you can think of.

[Durvayas]

Look at the new versatility with Bastard Sword. One handed, great damage Two hand better damage. I had a lot of fun being able to do that. What are some ways we can apply that thinking to lesser used weapons? Certain bludgeoning weapons having a small chance to temporarily "break" armor and applying a negative to AC? Piercing weapons that act like called shot: leg? Slashing weapons that act like Called shot arm?

Not saying these are great examples, but certainly thinking outside the crit and damage range would be preferable than across the board changes.

Blunt giving a temportary debuff on AC is a neat little idea. Could be reset by taking off and putting the armor back on, which can't be done during combat.

Can't buff slashing and piercing though, as those would also be direct buffs to kukri, scimmy, and rapiers, and only maintain the status quo of those being, unchallenged, the best weapons to use.

[Sockss]

War hammers, for example, are generally better for PvP (Spike > consistency when you factor current healing and AC) - so a blanket buff on damage type wouldn't be cool.

Anything that doesn't improve: Spear, Handaxe, Warhammer, Battleaxe, Rapier, Scimitar, Warhammer, Kama, Kukri or Scythe would be good, since they're all viable.

[Scurvy Cur]

FWIW, I think we're seeing slow movement in the right direction already on this issue, and it's not come from making weapons all the same. Some weapon types have been provided niches that are useful:

2h weapons have gotten an AB boost that makes them worthwhile for barbarians and the occasional WM that wants to go full out DPS. It's a change from them being completely worthless for everyone.

Bastard Sword has taken some steps to being a worthwhile flexibility weapon that lets you trade 1.5 points of damage (on average) against a greatsword for the ability to swap to sword and board when needed. I still think it needs a little love, maybe in the form of a reasonably good runic bastard sword, but its probably not too far off.

Longsword has found itself a niche in the 23 Fighter/4 Paladin/3 Bard or Rogue build that uses a moonblade, and it's not even a bad choice for elf or half elf WMs (though I still think humans with scimitars do better there, though by less of a margin than they used to).

Double weapons are about 1 little buff away from being a go-to choice for rangers. There's been an idea kicking around about letting double weapon feats also count while wielding the 1h variants (so focus/imp crit/weapon spec in a double axe would also work on a battleaxe, etc.) and I think if that goes through, I'd probably recommend them as the right pickup on a str-based ranger.

And scimitar/rapier has gotten a very minor nerf in consideration for late game equipment progression with the addition of an addy ingot to the crafting recipe. I no longer take it as a given that basically any melee character will have a keen m. damask to work with before they get rolled. It'll still probably happen now and then, but it's also perfectly defensible now to say "I'll just roll half elf or sun elf and grab a moonblade, because there's no way I have the patience to keen an M. Damask, and having 1 extra AB is probably worth grabbing"

Sure, some of the new weapon options have been duds, and I think we've got a little ways to go to open up more variety options. Sure, I'm a little disappointed that the chief alternative to scimitar is racially tied. But we are making some progress, and I'd hate to see that approach derailed by a misguided attempt to balance things by homogenization.

[Naeriza]

A few random thoughts:
1. Prevent keen weapon properties and improved critical feats from stacking.
2. The Increased Multiplier feat of WMs only applies on rolled 20's.
3. Make scythe crit multiplier a x3

These few changes would likely help a lot in terms of balance.

[kittenblackfriends]

Scythe crit multiplier x3 wouldn't be worth it lol. The base weapon damage is 2d4 and requires Exotic. Greataxe is martial, x3, and does 1d12 damage.

[Naeriza]

Scythe crit multiplier x3 wouldn't be worth it lol. The base weapon damage is 2d4 and requires Exotic. Greataxe is martial, x3, and does 1d12 damage.

Honestly? That would totally make sense to me. I am yet to hear about medieval knights fighting with a scythe.
Whips require exotic proficiency too. So do shuriken. Both kinds of weapons are not known for being particularly useful - merely uncommon.

Being the only weapon in NWN with a x4 multiplier pretty much asks for a meme build to exploit it.
Imagine all those two handed WMs wielding greataxes, halberds and greatswords instead of a scythe just to have the best burst damage.

Reducing scythe multiplier to x3 would make encountering an actual scythe WM something special and uncommon - as the unconventional choice of weapon implies. Exotic proficiency would add to the RP value in that case. Not to overpowered mechanical benefits.

[MissEvelyn]

^ I think it requires more finesse than that, because it that would devalue not only builds, but entire concepts (i.e. archers). It also makes it harder to play classes that are restricted in their proficiencies (rogues), while making it less inconvenient for classes that are already good and versatile (fighters).

Summons, also, to my knowledge, deal solely in bludgeoning damage, so massively increasing resistance can alienate summon-reliant casters.

It's a lot of work. It's why I can understand why it's hard to move on it.

It is a lot of work, to be sure. But I don't think it'd be something that's impossible to implement. Blunt arrows, for example, could be made a thing.
It could definitely be done. But it is a lot of work and it probably wouldn't be high on the priority list of things that need to be done/fixed.

[Nour]

Reducing scythe multiplier to x3 would make encountering an actual scythe WM something special and uncommon - as the unconventional choice of weapon implies. Exotic proficiency would add to the RP value in that case. Not to overpowered mechanical benefits.

If you're going to make someone take a FEAT for such a small thing mechanically it has to have some sort of other benefit. What was said about changing the weapons by Swampfoot is the way to go.

Certain bludgeoning weapons having a small chance to temporarily "break" armor and applying a negative to AC? Piercing weapons that act like called shot: leg? Slashing weapons that act like Called shot arm?

I wouldn't use this exactly but this is the right train of thought in my opinion.

[FoxyPigeon]

Some weapons like mace/morning star I could see having some bonus dmg like both piercing and bludgening, maybe these crappier weapons can just be more flexible with certain spells like flame weapon?

Idk, i dont hate raiper or scimmys, but I'm lying if I said I don't feel like I have pick one or else feel perpetually less optimal by not choosing them.

[Cortex]

Mace has the usefulness of -subdual, so it's not entirely useless. Morning Star is the best 1h simple weapon, or well, was before the Spear tweaks.

[Invader_Nym]

Remove the ability for keen and improved critical to stack.

Problem solved. Many many problems solved.

Replace all instances of the item property "keen" with the item property "improved critical: X" and change the keen spell to apply improved critical: X to the weapon.

Rapier and scimitar balanced. Weapon Master instantly balanced. Implementation would be quick and easy.

People will moan and complain for a month, but then after that, when everyone realizes that the power gap between builds has been narrowed in a healthy way, they'll reluctantly admit it was a prudent choice.

... IMHO

[Invader_Nym]

A few random thoughts:
1. Prevent keen weapon properties and improved critical feats from stacking.
2. The Increased Multiplier feat of WMs only applies on rolled 20's.
3. Make scythe crit multiplier a x3

These few changes would likely help a lot in terms of balance.

These are absolutely brilliant suggestions that would work beautifully to re-balance the server weapon-wise, although I'm skeptical about the need for #2 provided #1 is implemented.

Scythe WM is a glaringly obvious problem. It doesn't seem mechanically far off from the devastating critical feat. It's a sort of 1-and-done scenario very similar to devastating critical.

[SwampFoot]

. To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen anyone above lvl 4 using a dagger(as anything more than a stat boosting item) in the entire time I've played here.

My level 16 Ranger uses daggers. No one ever notices. I think they mistake them for kukri.