Feylock Feedback

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Liareth
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:09 am

I'm not happy with readding damage immunity at the last moment to feylocks, and removing the DC boost. So the last change I'm considering is as follows ...

Code: Select all

LEVEL PROGRESSION

Level 10: Uncanny Doodge, +5/-DR vs Cold/Electrical
Level 20: +1 to mind spell DCs, +5/- DR vs Cold/Electrical [+10 total]
Level 30: +1 to mind spell DCs [+2 total], +10 /- DR vs Cold/Electrical [+20 total]

HOLD SPELLS

For warlocks, the duration of hold spells scales at half rate past level ten (level ten: 10 rounds, level eleven: 10 rounds, level twelve: 11 rounds, etc), such that the duration at level thirty is 20 rounds. Extend spell applies a 1.5 modifier rather than a 2 modifier to the duration, such that the duration at level thirty is 30 rounds.

Each target actively held halves (rounding down) the duration of the next hold applied, such that the progression looks as follows:

Target  1    2    3    4    5    n
Normal  20   10   5    2    1    1
Extend  30   15   7    3    1    1
I'd love feedback on this change if anyone has any. I think this change will make CHA-based feylocks much more balanced in PvE content, and I feel it fits the theme of the class much better than sticking with the damage immunity.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Rwby » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:16 am

So now soloing content means even more pulling them one at a time?
I don't see how this balences, I see it making it even less fun.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:20 am

Rwby wrote:So now soloing content means even more pulling them one at a time?
I don't see how this balences, I see it making it even less fun.
I'm not designing feylocks to solo things. (Though now you have shadows which you can use to tank for you while you hold things, you can solo better than ever.) I'm designing them to be balanced in a group setting, which they aren't at present. They trivialise every dungeon that doesn't have mind immunity, especially when in a group.

But, yes ... if you can't tank mobs, you have to pull them one by one, just like every other class in the game.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:24 am

Is this only hold person, not hold monster? It's a bit rougher, but if it's only till hold monster it can be kind've worked around. (With pretty judicious use of Hideous Laughter on those last few enemies)

But if it's for hold person and monster, oof. Especially since they seem to have lost damage entirely on hold/charm? (Or at least, my charm monster does no damage. Anyone else?)

Looking at their spell list that's +2 DC to holds, charms, dominate person, Tasha's, mind fog, confusion-

Actually, no, they should be fine. You can't spam just hold person to win a whole fight, but using the whole spell list will even you out some. (And some of those 'worse' spells like tasha will at least be minorly more useful to fill in the gap.)
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:27 am

Hold Person and Hold Monster!

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:32 am

Oof. Mind fog still stuns, right? I guess extended it's not terrible trade for the DC boost, and I do like the DC boost, much as I wish it applied everywhere. Thinking about it, though, making it easier to land your other disables just means you'll need to adapt. They'll still do real well in group stuff, I think.

Does reapplying hold to the same creature count as having more than one thing held?
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:43 am

The count wouldn't be incremented on cast. The system would simply scan all mobs which you have held, and if they are still held by you, that counts as having a mob held. So you can keep trying to hold the same mob and the duration won't decrease between attempts!

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:46 am

Oh, yeah, then this is fine. You could probably juggle all five mobs at a time indefinitely so long as you pay attention and are hasted.
Last edited by One Two Three Five on Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Rwby » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:46 am

I'm not seeing this.

If every class in the game is going to have to pull one monster at a time, the group is pulling one Monster, you're holding that one Monster, they kill the one Monster, then you pull the next one Monster...

It stops you fighting groups and forces you to just slowly lure them one at a time, but if you're doing that anyway, this change doesn't seem to do anything at all?

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:48 am

If you're soloing, sure.
If you're in a group and you have to rely on single-monster-pulls to survive, you're in over your heads. (and making less XP than you probably think)

The point seems to be that your spells land more often properly, but you can't rely on hold monster to trivialize entire spawns anymore. I like it, but I'm built for DCs on mine right now, so bias. If you need six, seven enemies locked down at a time, mind fog is right there. Confusion too.
Fog, confusion, hold what's left. Not too bad, and if you're in a party have someone -guard you.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Septire » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:05 am

Seems like a good idea to me. If you frame the class changes in context with what vanilla classes get, it's still extremely good, it's only really when you consider it from its old perspective, or the best the server has to offer, that it seems weak.

I think it's a sensible change that helps bring the class in line and starts undoing some of the recent power-creep we've been seeing lately.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:37 pm

Rwby wrote:It stops you fighting groups and forces you to just slowly lure them one at a time, but if you're doing that anyway, this change doesn't seem to do anything at all?
If your entire group PvE experience can be summarised as "we only fight things that are held, so if you make this change we'll pull things one by one, that's not fun!" then you can see the problem already: you're only ever fighting mobs that don't fight back. How is that fun or engaging or balanced in any way? This change means that you can fight two mobs that don't fight back and a third that you have to regularly hold or else it'll break out and attack you, rather than six mobs that don't fight back. It's still pretty broken but it's a damn sight fairer than it was before.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Rwby » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:55 pm

Having floated around Arelith for a long time, a lot of successful adventuring is done against things that can't fight back. Held Monsters, Knocked down Monsters, Monsters that can't hurt your epic level summon, Monsters that can't hit your friend whose -guarding you really high AC, things that can't reach you before you call shot legs them into slowtown...

The best way to fight is always going to be one against Monsters that can't fight back. If you, as a character or a player, are giving the monsters a fair chance, you're risking your life for no reason. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone who _wants_ a Mob of monsters to fight back in such a way that their life is in danger. Most people don't go out adventuring looking for a challenge that'll get them killed. They go into fights they know that they can win.

Yes, this change will make it so Feylocks in PvM have to tackle a smaller number of Monsters at once, so they'll have to pull them and grind slower. That's slower, and less fun I think, but it's not objectively making content harder, it's just making it slower.

If the issue is that we don't want classes speed-crushing mobs, there are a lot more ways of doing it than sinking all your stats into Charisma and playing a Feylock. I think it's fairly accepted that a Decently built weapon Master will explode a lot of mobs just by touching them, which is a lot more effective than a slow death by holding, and that's far from the only example.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Rwby wrote:Having floated around Arelith for a long time, a lot of successful adventuring is done against things that can't fight back. Held Monsters, Knocked down Monsters, Monsters that can't hurt your epic level summon, Monsters that can't hit your friend whose -guarding you really high AC, things that can't reach you before you call shot legs them into slowtown...
In all of these examples, though, the mob can fight back. KD is an unfair example because you can only KD a thing once, it has to be KD'd each round, even if you do spam KD it will get up and hit you back once or twice depending on timing, etc.
Rwby wrote:Yes, this change will make it so Feylocks in PvM have to tackle a smaller number of Monsters at once, so they'll have to pull them and grind slower. That's slower, and less fun I think, but it's not objectively making content harder, it's just making it slower.
Except that's not true - from a purely damage per second basis, all of your damage is single target, so whether you pull things one by one or all at once, you'll be doing similar damage. At worst you'll lose a marginal, irrelevant amount of time because you have to target a mob far away, and that's more difficult than targeting one up close.
Rwby wrote:If the issue is that we don't want classes speed-crushing mobs, there are a lot more ways of doing it than sinking all your stats into Charisma and playing a Feylock. I think it's fairly accepted that a Decently built weapon Master will explode a lot of mobs just by touching them, which is a lot more effective than a slow death by holding, and that's far from the only example.
The issue isn't the feylock's ability to solo grind. The issue is that CHA-based feylocks turn up and hold everything for every other class to slaughter without allowing the monsters to fight back.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Rwby » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:08 pm

[quote="Scholar Midnight"]

In all of these examples, though, the mob can fight back. KD is an unfair example because you can only KD a thing once, it has to be KD'd each round, even if you do spam KD it will get up and hit you back once or twice depending on timing, etc./quote]

Well. Yes, technically they're 'fighting' back. They're not actually doing anything remotely dangerous, though or posing a threat.

I see where you're coming from, I do. I just don't feel this is making anything more fun for anyone, Feylocks or non Feylocks. But admittedly, I'm not in a position to be aware of a flood of complaints from players saying there grinding isn't fun because of the way Feylocks handle certain mobs.

But this is a situation that only comes up when facing very specific mobs, who have low will saves, and no spawns with mind immunity. In other situations Feylocks can be [Semi] useless.

Then I guess, in all fairness trial and error is always the best way of gradually balencing things, and there's no saying this won't change again in a week or two if it's too good/bad.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Ork » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:12 pm

The alternative to make dungeons challenging would be to raise will saves. I'm not a fan of bloated will saves, or saves in general, so this change would be perfect.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Nitro » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:36 pm

It wasn't long ago that most mobs had ludicrous saves to combat infinicasters, I don't think anyone wants to go back to those days.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Peppermint » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:47 pm

Looks clunky and non-intuitive, and with those numbers, won't work. Even five rounds is a lot. That's thirty seconds, which is enough time to virtually clean out an entire encounter. The margin gets scarier when you add extend.

Hard disablers on infinicasters don't really work. If you want to go this avenue, you need to either 1) add a significant global timelock to feylock disablers, or 2) rework feylock disablers so that they debuff, rather than disable (e.g. AB penalties, AC penalties, etc.)

If you're seriously insistent on making CHA-based warlocks a thing, then consider keying a small CHA-based bonus to their blast damage. If you're really looking to just tone down their current capabilities*, increasing their DCs is really not the way to go. Consider pulling mind fog from their spell list (or toning it down).

But really, the entire concept of the class just falls flat as a CHA-based caster. They need a complete overhaul, not a handful of tweaks if you want to go that route. My firm recommendation: maybe consider tweaking their spell list, but otherwise, leave the class alone.

(* Given your proposal, it looks like you're trying to do the opposite?)

ETA: Also considering that vancian casters typically only disable a couple creatures per encounter, this approach isn't really doing them any favors. By increasing feylocks' DC and turning them into more reliable, albeit 'limited' disablers, you're infringing heavily on the former's niche -- which are already even more limited, in practice.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:31 pm

A charisma modifier on eldrich blast would be amazing tbh from an itemization standpoint.

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:39 pm

Peppermint wrote:words
I disagree with your assessment, but I appreciate the input. Adding a CHA-based element to eldritch blast is a very good idea, however!

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:44 pm

Everything is held, and the WM will cleave through everything even more effortlessly than before.
:)

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:44 pm

The emphasis on higher DCs for an infini-caster with disables is problematic. It's the same issue that lead to Weavemasters being disabled save for grandfathered characters. Balancing mobs for high DC feylock disablers means that vancian casters, such as traditional wizards and sorcerers, give up being anything but nukers and buffbot/shifters.

Saving throws on mobs throughout the server have crept up in recent years, and infini-casters are largely to blame for the power creep. Compounding the problem doesn't seem like the best solution.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Sockss » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:46 pm

Seems weird to balance an ability that's understood to be broken by making it /more/ reliable. (10% more reliable)

If something's held it's dead. Even if you reduce the duration of the hold it doesn't change much - in the suggested implementation you just keep juggling hold targets. You can keep at least six things held reliably by that model which is more than a regular spawn or average bad pull.

Ultimately if this is going to be balanced pve then you just can't have an infinite cast of what is effectively a death spell.

But in the interests of making it better without scrapping it and promoting cha builds:

Maybe only allow one target to be held, but apply extra damage based on your charisma modifier to a held target.

Maybe change hold from certain death. Maybe instead of holding the creature it instead immobilised it. (Hence ranged and casters will be able to fight back). You don't have a limit to immobilised creatures and you get a damage bonus Vs them.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:53 pm

It's also worth noting that the limitation on holding X number of monsters is pretty irrelevant. Pulling monsters 1/2 at a time has been a thing since Arelith first existed.

Increasing warlock DCs is just going to push traditional vancian casters even more out of relevance in PvE outside of buff bots and IGMS spam nukers.

Reduced duration of the holds don't affect this much because, by your own admission, you can just rehold something. It'll take slightly longer to kill it as you stagger in holds with your flares to do damage.

This is all also largely irrelevant since fey warlocks, as far as I can tell, still get one of the best mass disables in the game (Confusion), infinitely, with no alteration or change. That alone is going to help them bridge the gap and be vastly better than vancian casters.
Last edited by Hunter548 on Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Lorkas » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:54 pm

One of the things I really liked about the old staff-based warlock is that they had access to stun and other debuffs, but they always lasted 1 round. It was clear that the stun was a temporary thing that was there to compliment the eldritch blast damage, rather than the eldritch blast damage being something tacked on to a spell that otherwise works the way that spell would work for every other caster.

A CHA based warlock could therefore lock down a creature by focusing entirely on that creature, but can't have a target held and also be doing other stuff at the same time.

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