Mechanics, FOIG, and Lanterns

[Kythana]

This is something that that has been a source of constant frustration for me ever since I've become more knowledgeable with how Arelith works.

FOIG (Find Out In Game) is not inherently a bad concept. It serves to allow players that desire a chance of exploration, and the opportunity to find out want they want, at their own pace. I remember when I first joined Arelith, I had no idea about roughly... anything, nor that there was a discord, and most of what I learned was exclusively through talking to others ingame.

And that's fine. It's fun for some, and if you want to play that way, more power to you!

However, when I slowly waded myself more into the endgame aspects of the server, and dealing with some of the more esoteric aspects, there seems to be a trend to keep information hidden, from an almost weirdly strict gatekeeping way.

Most likely the biggest example of this are the ingame Boons, which have very little in terms of ingame references that actually point them out to players, but offer a fairly significant mechanical boost for those that do find them.

However, there are problems when you hide mechanics behind FOIG.

1. It serves to further enhance the often very negative pvp, 'I must win' mindset. More than once I've seen rather infamous groups/players that know quite a handful of beneficial information ingame relating to mechanics, but then also refuse to share and talk about it with anyone outside their inner circle. Why would they tell others about hidden things that serve to make them stronger?

2. Testing anything that is gated behind FOIG becomes very difficult to verify if working properly, as there is nothing documented to check against. This is particularly egregious when something new is being introduced, and I have no idea what it does. How can I verify that it's working and not a bug, if I don't even know what I'm looking for?

3. It ultimately leads to metagaming. People often joke that FOIG = FOID (Find Out In Discord), and this has been very true in my experience. I specifically learned about a FOIG mechanic, the Maurs boon, after speaking to someone in OOC communications. But despite having done Maurs before, nothing ingame there even suggested that there IS something to find! Which leads to the next problem...

4. It widens the gap even further between new and old players. While some players who are in the know are more than happy to share any and all information about FOIG mechanics ingame, realize that a lot of newer players don't even know the questions to ask. This a problem for almost any sort of profession, or hobby. And one of Arelith's most strongest benefits is the relative accessibility for new players, in spite of this.

Recently, there was an update that added several lanterns ingame. Firstly, that information isn't even on the wiki, so I once again was informed OOCly of their existence. I've been told that they offer several bonuses ingame relating to mechanics, the angler lantern I've been informed of.

I want to state that I think this is the completely wrong approach. We should be striving to get away from FOIG for mechanical benefits, and allow it to be used for an actual good purpose, which is anything player generated, such as ingame happenings, events, RP, ect.

What will end up happening, as I've seen many times before is:

A group of players will collaborate OOCly to test on what these new items do. If they're very strong, and offer a clear mechanical superiority, then that information will likely be held internally as long as possible. Players in the know will be able to use their new toys to their fullest abilities, and new/uninformed players will never even think to buy a lantern because they have no idea that it does anything at all. The game never communicates that.

And one of the most important thing about interacting with a game's mechanical systems, is that you're receiving proper feedback.

I hope that we can follow the example of the recent specialty drink update, which highlighted all the benefits of how the drinks worked. It allowed for proper player feedback, and actually gave me incentive to use these. As it stands, I won't be bothering with the lanterns until someone else figures out what they do, because it's an insane inventory tax on an already bloated inventory to begin with.

[chocolatelover]

This. Couldn't possibly say it any better.

[Carrion Eater]

I agree, in that I do believe that strictly mechanical systems should be shared. I feel it is helpful when considering FOIG vs. documented.

I think that the Fishing and Drinks systems are shining examples of this being respected.

Fishing is two-pronged: there are the mechanical items and equipment you use, and then there are the fishing spots and what you gain from fishing. The mechanical side of things- fisherman's waders, hooks, rods- has always been forward about how things work mechanically. The actual exploratory aspect of fishing- catching fish- has been left to be found out in-game, whether through solo exploration or roleplay.

Fishing is transparent in what benefits you gain for the different equipment you use. It tells you the difference between runic and lucky hooks, it tells you what fisherman's waders do, so on and so forth. Fishing does not, however, give a catalogued list of where to actually find the fish. When fish are added, they are announced by name, and it is exciting because we already know what tools we'll need and can start speculating about where we need to go to fish up the new options.

Fishing is extremely well-done, because it informs the player on the mechanics of the system and the items without spoiling the catch. Because we know the mechanics of the system, we are also more easily able to report when those mechanics are not working.

The drink system is simpler, but it is another encouraging example. We were informed what each drink would do, how fresh bonuses work, and the mechanics behind simple questions such as, "will this work from any cooking station? Do I need to drink it in a tavern to get a bonus?" While these questions could have been discovered if we were told "FOIG", it doesn't really make sense to stamp "FOIG" on them. These are mechanical parts of a mechanical system that apply mechanical bonuses to the character based on a mechanical difference between "[tavern] fresh" and not.

I feel that when it comes to recognizing what could be left FOIG versus what could be made documented knowledge, it is considering the line between roleplay ("where+how do I catch sunfish?") versus mechanics ("is there any difference between fishing rods?") in-game.

[Edens_Fall]

While I do not lean one way or the other on the topic, I would like to point out the IG way of combating this information hoarding . . . Books.

Thanks to Arelith's unique writing system, any PC can craft and print written books/notebooks IG. In short, if there is knowledge you feel should be shared to everyone, write that book (keeping it from an IG perspective), copy it, and pass it out. I've personally come across several such books that explain rituals or hidden locations and its been very meaningful. Even wrote a few myself. Take a disadvantage and turn it into an IG plot/personal quest for yourself , as well as a mark of pride.

As far as the mechanical side of things that can't be spoken about from an IG perspective, such should be included in the wiki I agree.

[Rubricae]

While I do not lean one way or the other on the topic, I would like to point out the IG way of combating this information hoarding . . . Books.

Which should not be relied upon for information that shouldn't be secret to begin with.

[Cthuletta]

All of the this.
What the heck is a boon?! I didn't even know about such a thing.

I want to know what all the lanterns do without having to somehow test them each to even be able to tell, which is likely impossible to do without any information to go off of. I'm not even sure what the Angler Lantern does aside from 'Good for fishing'. How is it good for fishing? Not a clue!

Stuff that has almost no mechanical benefit I could see remaining FOIG (thinking the Deck of Stars style where it's largely just flavour), but anything that has an actual mechanical CHANGE to your character, I'd at least like to know about it so I can know if it's even there and working as intended.

[Eyeliner]

I wish I was 17 and able to play Arelith for 40 hours a week on Summer Vacation again but this is a part time job at best now and I just don't have time to trial and error all these FOIG toys. I get wanting people to have thrill of discovery but maybe there could be some meeting in the middle where it was okay for players who discover what opaque things do to add that to the wiki so the rest of us can enjoy them too.

[Security_Blanket]

Stuff that has almost no mechanical benefit I could see remaining FOIG (thinking the Deck of Stars style where it's largely just flavour), but anything that has an actual mechanical CHANGE to your character, I'd at least like to know about it so I can know if it's even there and working as intended.

Strangely enough, the Deck of Stars can provide a mechanical benefit that's locked behind FOIG info. Then there's the understanding the aura's, I'm sure there are a couple diviners out there that are enjoying the perks that come with that knowledge but they are far from the majority.

[TheDoctor]

Most likely the biggest example of this are the ingame Boons, which have very little in terms of ingame references that actually point them out to players, but offer a fairly significant mechanical boost for those that do find them.

Wait the whats now? Been here for a WHILE why am I only now hearing about this? No wiki entry or anything.

The only thing I know about that has to do with boons is fey stuff.

[Shadowy Reality]

Regarding the boons, without revealing everything. There are certain places in the server that have a sort of puzzle with things you can interact, if you do it correctly you get a Boon for what I believe is 7 RL days. The boons typically give a mix between +stat +save.

I think this is a bit of a weird FOIG mechanic too. How many characters actually roleplay learning this, I am going to bet 0. You either know the puzzles and all your characters somehow know them, or you have to be shown by someone. I think it might be worth writing what the Boons give mechanically in the wiki, and their names as that will at least indicate where they may be found, without revealing anything about how to acquire them.

[Anomandaris]

If the problem is players using ooc info that shouldn’t exist, why create more ooc info? There’s no perfect system, people aren’t even aware of the info on the wiki half the time.

Given you can ask around and will absolutely be told these things IC, I don’t see a problem. No ones trying to hide some marginal blessing from ppl that I’ve seen. These things are fun for people to discover ic. We shouldn’t have access to perfect info like that, it’s kind of the point. And if you don’t have a boon and someone else does, you’ll likely never know and it won’t make a lick of difference.

For changes and class mechanics this is an issue. But for little cookies in the world like boons, it’s ok to have foig things. For every player metagaming it across chars, there’s another 3 that aren’t. These things add depth and mystery to the world.

[MRFTW]

After the twentieth character or so, it can get quite difficult to remember which ones know the konami code and which ones don't.

I prefer IC solutions and this screams 'write a book about it' to me.

[Security_Blanket]

In the years I've played here I've not discovered nor was even aware that these boons ever existed, now I'm discovering there are more beyond the Deck of Stars that's all locked behind FOIG info. Which is essentially, if you learn it once on one character, now all of your characters know it and gain the mechanical benefits that come with that knowledge, it doesn't matter how small the buff, it's a mechanical benefit that only a few know about and have an advantage on others because of it, again, no matter how small. I don't get how this is even in question or needs to face any kind of debate. Not everyone wants to explore all the riddles or has a character that would if there is no clear benefit or reason to do it, you don't know what question to ask or that there even is one. Ignorance is bliss?

How long until this thread gets locked I wonder, it's what always happens when this discussion comes up. Argue in circles, no change, lock the thread, and FIND OUT IN GAME!

[Azensor]

It takes only one person to write a ic book detailing the findings or info

[Security_Blanket]

It takes only one person to write a ic book detailing the findings or info

All the power to these nameless heroes, it doesn't change the fact that the majority are completely unaware of their existence. To stop and read a book thinking it will contain some secret hidden info, do you have any idea how many books there are? Just start reading them all? Now because my wizard is an avid book reader I can carry that same OoC info to my mundane tank that barely reads.

Considering how hard it was for my Banite to find someone to tell him how to block Scry IC, I don't have high hopes that other mechanical FOIG info won't be hoarded, or revealed in some other roundabout way that the majority won't figure out. But now I know, and I didn't go through the RP on all my other characters to figure out how to do it again, because as a player, I already know.

[Carrion Eater]

I agree on writing books in-character! I love to spread information about "secret mechanics" when I am playing a character who would learn about it, know about it, and be willing to share. I am happy to see several volunteers with the same idea.

On the other hand, it does require the information to be known- both before it can be asked about, and before somebody can write a book about it. It sounds as if the concern stems from not knowing the information necessary to write a book, and not knowing where to start to get that information, because- in OP's case- they were new and did not know the mechanics existed in the first place, and had no telegraphed way to learn that the mechanics existed.

Granted, I have gotten to learn what I know a very long time ago on other characters, so I now always have the OOC knowledge that they exist/how they work, and therefore know what to ask or where to go to "learn it for the first time" on Character 55. I know the question exists, and can find some way in roleplay for it to come up in-game.

If the student doesn't know the question exists, how do they know to ask?

To continue on the current example of a secret system:

Regarding the boons, without revealing everything. There are certain places in the server that have a sort of puzzle with things you can interact, if you do it correctly you get a Boon for what I believe is 7 RL days. The boons typically give a mix between +stat +save.

It's somewhere around 3-4 RL weeks now because of the Arelith time change, unless that's changed. I know I had my boon on a character for at least 3 weeks before needing to refresh it around 4-5 months ago.

I think that boons are a prime example of something that could be explained somehow in the wiki, even if it is vaguely, so that people know they exist and can try to find ways to ask about it or learn about it (maybe through a book ) in-game. One of the boons does not have any puzzle at all and involves standing in one specific spot and knowing what to do beforehand. Nothing in the dungeon telegraphs that you should stand in that spot, nor that you should do what you need to do in order to receive it. There is no information to gain from the dungeon that explains there is a secret there at all.

There are people who will take you there and tell you what to do- if you know those people. I don't know if that should be relied on as a solution.

[Coolguy McMagic]

You can still RP learning about the boons in-game even if you know about them OOC. Those are not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, this is the case with most of the server-specific knowledge already.
My characters don't seek out those boons until someone has told them about it in-game.

[Kythana]

If the problem is players using ooc info that shouldn’t exist, why create more ooc info? There’s no perfect system, people aren’t even aware of the info on the wiki half the time.

At no point has the problem ever been players using OOC info that shouldn't exist. The problem, as specifically highlighted, is that it doesn't exist, and there is no intuitive way to learn ingame. These are things that often have 0 hints, and is just collective tribal knowledge. You can speak for yourself, but the wiki is a great tool to make the game more accessible in general, and plenty of people do use it as a great resource to understand how this works.

Regardless of whether players are and aren't aware, the information is there to understand and learn about a mechanical system in depth, instead of hopelessly speculating on what something does, why, whether it's correct. I've reported numerous bugs because something on the wiki says it works one way, but ingame it actually doesn't. I can't do that when something is FOIG, I have zero idea if it's working as intended, broken, bugged, or messed up in any way.

Given you can ask around and will absolutely be told these things IC, I don’t see a problem. No ones trying to hide some marginal blessing from ppl that I’ve seen. These things are fun for people to discover ic. We shouldn’t have access to perfect info like that, it’s kind of the point. And if you don’t have a boon and someone else does, you’ll likely never know and it won’t make a lick of difference.

I'll counter your own anecdotal experience with my own, in that, yes, I've absolutely seen problem players and faction that go out of their way to hide things that are "FOIG" for the purposes of gaining a one up on other players. Obscene gold farming methods are often hidden by said players as well, out of interest not to have it nerfed, as well as powerful builds that are not well known, and often outright exploits.

Probably the best example of this was the recent hood-checking controversy, which never explicitly stated that a primary reason for doing this was to bypass the godsave from disguises.

So your experience may not have shown that, but all that says to me is you're not looking hard enough, and you're not playing at high enough level to where this will make a difference. For the boons specifically, an extra 4 will save or 5 discipline (Which is what they give to some builds) is the difference between passing a save or knockdown attempt. That's pretty important, especially when you want to challenge exceptionally skilled players ingame.

After the twentieth character or so, it can get quite difficult to remember which ones know the konami code and which ones don't.

I prefer IC solutions and this screams 'write a book about it' to me.

This is moving the goal posts. A book is not a maintainable solution. What happens month after you've moved on from that character, the spot is no longer actively played around, the book is stolen, destroyed, or simply never really discussed in the first place.

It also, once again, is a stopgap for newer players. You have hundreds if not thousands of books sitting around in libraries. Going through every single one to hopefully and eventually find something that gives some of unique benefit ingame is insane.

And just for my anecdotal experience, I've already done this. On a previous character, I specifically went around to multiple libraries, including Myon, Radiant Heart, Arcane Tower, and Guldorand's Winter Rest. And across the sixty-seventy books I read, and the hundreds I skimmed over, not once did I see a reference to any sort of FOIG info.

I'm not saying they aren't there, but they sure aren't obvious.

It takes only one person to write a ic book detailing the findings or info

Really? So in all the years Arelith has been out, do you think nobody has ever written a book about boons? And yet- This thread has had multiple comments now indicating that they have no idea what I'm even talking about when I refer to these.

[MRFTW]

After the twentieth character or so, it can get quite difficult to remember which ones know the konami code and which ones don't.

I prefer IC solutions and this screams 'write a book about it' to me.

This is moving the goal posts. A book is not a maintainable solution. What happens month after you've moved on from that character, the spot is no longer actively played around, the book is stolen, destroyed, or simply never really discussed in the first place.

It also, once again, is a stopgap for newer players. You have hundreds if not thousands of books sitting around in libraries. Going through every single one to hopefully and eventually find something that gives some of unique benefit ingame is insane.

And just for my anecdotal experience, I've already done this. On a previous character, I specifically went around to multiple libraries, including Myon, Radiant Heart, Arcane Tower, and Guldorand's Winter Rest. And across the sixty-seventy books I read, and the hundreds I skimmed over, not once did I see a reference to any sort of FOIG info.

Sassy, I like it.

A book absolutely is a maintainable solution. Like books in real life, it's possible to make and distribute copies. It's actually quite important if you want multiple people to be able to read it. Historically speaking this has been known as 'publishing' and I think it's possible in the Forgotten Realms, as well.

I'm not saying they aren't there, but they sure aren't obvious.

They are there, and nobody is under any obligation to make things obvious for you.

[Kessarin]

I had no idea boons were a thing until this thread.

[Security_Blanket]

I had no idea boons were a thing until this thread.

Likewise, but I'm expected to explore in-game for something I don't even know exists, that's maddening. How on earth is this a reasonable approach, especially when many of us are all too familiar with the "I must win" mindset.

[Kythana]

To make things even more confusing for those who didn't know, the Maurs boon requires you speak Jotun at a specific spot in the dungeon.

And the best part? There's nothing that indicates this. There is no examinable object at the spot, there is no ingame journal or description to read, no writ that even hints at the idea.

The other one at least has interactable objects to examine and touch, with ingame messages that provide feedback that you're doing something.

[Cthuletta]

To make things even more confusing for those who didn't know, the Maurs boon requires you speak Jotun at a specific spot in the dungeon.

And the best part? There's nothing that indicates this. There is no examinable object at the spot, there is no ingame journal or description to read, no writ that even hints at the idea.

I feel like someone 'knowing' this and just where to speak it almost falls into metagaming territory if it's almost exclusively passed from/through OOC knowledge. I can easily blame myself for not knowing these boons existed if there were in-game clues to find and I was just careless or didn't look at anything. Similarly to someone learning something via Discord, passing the information off ICly and then others ICly know about it; that would still boil down to metagaming even if the ones later down the line learned about it the 'legitimate' way because they didn't know any better.
This could potentially be more easily remedied with IC clues in the area at least, that seems the simple and most effective answer for those who want to keep the knowledge 'FOIG' and potentially off the Wiki. But to 'FOIG', it needs to be... IN the game. Relying on legacy characters to pass information down just isn't viable in the long-term.

Books can be great for this- but to have a chance for it to circulate past the time it's written and new, be 'published' and so forth, you'd probably need them added to the loot matrix. Which a good deal of books are not, but that's a whole different type of Feedback thread for another day!

[Xerah]

I don't know if anyone would have been able to figure out the maur boon if they didn't know the exact phrasing from the actual code. Maybe there is an IC way to figure this out, or someone could brute force it for some reason.

[Subtext]

There's also a massive disparity between these things.

The Maur boon and it's lack of hints has been mentioned. The other fairly popular boon? Even if there isn't much in terms of hints, it's definitely something one can figure out without preexisting knowledge. And I think that's actually reasonably well done.

Doing the quest to break a collar? Super fun to figure out without outside interference and just by talking to friends ICly and trying things. (Although please, perhaps state quantities!)

Then again however, you have the acquisition of the Mechanus stream. The "riddle" is one thing but there is another condition and you get absolutely no feedback on what's going on. In my case, I actually thought the solution to the riddle was wrong.

Anyway, that's the thing for me personally. I don't want secrets to be fed to me through wiki pages or even player written books. I love figuring secrets out. But I would want to be able to actually figure things out through ingame means. Sometimes it would mean as little as more detailed feedback messages when you interact with things. It could be a -loot matrix- book with a somewhat seductive title to make folks aware of a thing like a boon in the first place.

However, FOIG means very little and feels like a joke if I can't actually FOIG.