What Shadovar know regarding Karsus

[triaddraykin]

Having just read through most of the new Shadovar wiki entry (excellent and thorough work, by the way), there's a contradiction I've found. I'm going to keep it brief.

In the section titled, What the Shadovar Commoner knows of their history, it states that, in essence, Karsus' Folly is unknown to them. Later, that it's a state-protected secret.

In the book titled, Into Darkness - The Birth of the Shadovar, it outlines the Folly. In the Deity book about Mystra, it outlines the Folly. In at least a half-dozen player-written books, the Folly is mentioned.

Considering the retroactive restriction of eldritch knowledge, and any Far Realms lore (up to and including their very existence) in the past, I'm concerned this is a sign of another rewriting of lore.

Or, it simply may be that Arelith has a fair few scholars, and in the Shadovar empire, they don't allow the discussion of Karsus. A commoner who comes to Arelith may discover this 'secret', but entirely dismiss it as folly in and of itself.

[DM Monkey]

Player written books =/= canon material for the setting.

In most FR books, you're not seeing the perspective of the common people. You're seeing particular, often well positioned characters who have a unique perspective within the story in order to further the telling of the tale of what happens. For example, in Realms of Shadow, there are many different short stories that tell the tales of Shadow Magic, the Shadovar, the Fall, etc. But you're always getting information from specific character perspectives.

An arcanist of the Shadovar might uncover these secrets on their own, they might learn about it from Faerun's histories once on the Prime, they might learn from other characters, they might learn from player written books, they might be right, they might be wrong, who cares because it's just a character's opinion and there's no objective truth as far as any character can ever really be sure within the setting.

As a player, we should all consider that our characters might be wrong about things, and that they never have access to perfect information.

[Kuma]

In the section titled, What the Shadovar Commoner knows of their history, it states that, in essence, Karsus' Folly is unknown to them. Later, that it's a state-protected secret.

[...]

I'm concerned this is a sign of another rewriting of lore.

[...]

This is setting-established hard canon. The shadovar commoners have been stuck in the plane of shadow for generations. This has no implications for other characters.

[triaddraykin]

Player written books =/= canon material for the setting.

I was sourcing from books that are in the module item matrix (or whatever the items created by the module are called) for that reason.

they might learn about it from Faerun's histories once on the Prime, they might learn from other characters, they might learn from player written books, they might be right, they might be wrong, who cares because it's just a character's opinion and there's no objective truth as far as any character can ever really be sure within the setting.

My concern there came from precedent for the 'learning from characters, books, or history' had been invalidated as across-the-board falsehood that no character should know about or believe, in the case of the Far Realms. Similarly esoteric topics that required magical divination to learn about in general lore, and cannot be directly supported due to mechanical and module limitations. I saw an equivalency.

This is setting-established hard canon. The shadovar commoners have been stuck in the plane of shadow for generations. This has no implications for other characters.

Accessory books to the setting don't get automatically accepted are Arelithian lore. Otherwise, that's a good point, and an extension of my last line in the original post.

[Kuma]

Player written books =/= canon material for the setting.

I was sourcing from books that are in the module item matrix (or whatever the items created by the module are called) for that reason.

Just because something's in the bookshelves and published doesn't mean it's true. Vanya's books are full of propaganda. Many player written "module books" are full of untruths or whole-cloth theorising.

Accessory books to the setting don't get automatically accepted are Arelithian lore.

"Accessory books to the setting"? Do you mean "the setting"? Because yes it is. That's the default. Arelith may change and tweak but those images are from Lords of Darkness, a 3e sourcebook for Forgotten Realms.

That's literally lore.

[triaddraykin]

Player written books =/= canon material for the setting.

I was sourcing from books that are in the module item matrix (or whatever the items created by the module are called) for that reason.

Just because something's in the bookshelves and published doesn't mean it's true. Vanya's books are full of propaganda. Many player written "module books" are full of untruths or whole-cloth theorising.

Accessory books to the setting don't get automatically accepted are Arelithian lore.

"Accessory books to the setting"? Do you mean "the setting"? Because yes it is. That's the default. Arelith may change and tweak but those images are from Lords of Darkness, a 3e sourcebook for Forgotten Realms.

That's literally lore.

Got what I wanted to present and learn here, thanks. Didn't want to leave you waiting for a response.

[A Digital Vagrant]

Also, keep in mind that the Shadovar that are permitted to leave Thultanthar are not Commoners.
Certainly not Princes, but definitely not the common folk. The few that are permitted to leave are permitted by the higher-ups, and could potentially likely be trusted with the possibility of finding out that sort of information (whether it's true or not!)

[Rubricae]

Also, keep in mind that the Shadovar that are permitted to leave Thultanthar are not Commoners.
Certainly not Princes, but definitely not the common folk. The few that are permitted to leave are permitted by the higher-ups, and could potentially likely be trusted with the possibility of finding out that sort of information (whether it's true or not!)

isn't the language loross itself restricted to only those in nobility and above as well.

[ReverentBlade]

As far as I understand, Loross was spoken by people in the Flying Cities, and Netherese by the people on the ground.

[Kuma]

Loross was indeed the language of high Netheril. It is worth noting however, that while the citizens of Thulanthar were once all nobility or at least well-to-do, they've been in an inhospitable shadow realm for millennia. We can easily assume there are thus haves and have nots within that society (as indicated by common shadovar existing).