New Item Concerns!

[Arienette]

.... and then I noticed the +10 AB.

Lol.

[PeterRasta]

They're not fake, no. I've found a stack of five and then a single one in chests so far.
Pretty sure that's the screenshot I took to demonstrate it, aswell.

[ImWithThisGuy]

Whoa. That's a bit crazy.

Are there any citations for that? I have a hard time believing that is real as well, not as an insult to any that proclaim it, more so that anyone designing the item could clearly and fully understand it is more than leaps and bounds outside of balance, and closer to leagues and miles beyond. Disregarding the mords (which is equally valuable) there are builds that can reach over 60 ab using those. Many characters do not get that much while drinking truestrike potions. (A common one being most 3/4 bab classes; 21bab +14ability +4feats +20 truestrike = 59)


Even someone who doesn't understand anything about mechanics could clearly see that item that item is impossibly balanced. If it does exist on the server, then it was a implementation mistake, not a design one.

[Opustus]

I found a Mord throwing axe the other day with Mordiepordie onhit and +20 AB. I'm not concerned though. I do agree it's a bit silly, but I don't think it will unhinge game balance. I dislike features of win conditions locked behind random loot, and while I would like to believe that ain't nobody got time fo random loot finding, I'm afraid this might motivate some people to dungeon delve in perpetuity to stack up on these babies. I'm not at all concerned for balance's sake, because firstly I don't see these winbuttons becoming widespread and secondly proper winbuttoning would require a DEX build for it (edit: so exposure is at least limited in that way). I am concerned for the few people's sanity's sake who go on their loops to find these, and that's my biggest and only real concern.

I think a Mord thrower item would've done the trick better. Modelled after crossbow so everyone can wield it. Made so that Rapid reload doesn't apply to it, so that this functionality remains: `Crossbows only provide one attack per round no matter the creature's BAB unless the character has the rapid reload feat, in which case, the weapon has the normal attack progression. Effects that provide additional attacks, such as haste or the divine power spell will work with crossbows.`
Edit2: Two or three attacks max of Mord at +20 per round, limited by low availability, lesser impact for clerks (who get +1 attack for it) due to their heavy AB buffs that count toward the +20 cap.

[PeterRasta]

Are there any citations for that?

Don't know how to prove it to you, but I'm definetly not this good at photoshopping. I can barely utilise paint.

https://imgur.com/cGeKYxC

[Peppermint]

Mordenkainen's Throwers doesn't solve the whole problem.

This "solution" doesn't solve the whole problem.

You can't bust someone out of Greater Sanctuary with targeted weaponry.

You can, however, absolutely skewer anyone else that you'd like.

This update fails to address the entire problem, and creates new, far worse ones. If you told me an update like this would be released before the Lore update had hit, I'd have laughed you out of the room. Everyone would have.

It's not possible for me to be calm and rational here. This is insane.

[Apokriphos]

Mordenkainen's Throwers doesn't solve the whole problem.

This "solution" doesn't solve the whole problem.

You can't bust someone out of Greater Sanctuary with targeted weaponry.

You can, however, absolutely skewer anyone else that you'd like.
...

But you dont need to be able to burst them out of Greater Sanctuary, an extremely short duration, hard limited to once per few minutes escape spell with barely any offensive capacity.

With mord per hit weapons like these, as a mundane, all you need to do is wait. And that's assuming they can successfully cast it in the first place.

When your first round of attacks are all mord on hit triggers, the mage will have almost no buffs as he/she attempts to cast a spell. Good luck having that not interrupted.

This is terrible on many levels, and invalidates spellcasting in any high tier pvp conflict.

[Zavandar]

[Opustus]

I'm not sure what you consider the issue is that is being addressed by these changes, but imho the story goes like this:

Problem: bad aesthetic and game feel of high-level scrolls and their prevalence + the necessity of UMD because of the importance of high-level scrolls.

Solution: gate high-level scrolls with adjustable lore skill check + introduce mundane items to replace high-level scrolls.

I think the update has been a relative success, if we consider the problem is as stated above.

[Zavandar]

Problem: game was balanced but some people didn't like umd

Solution: change the umd tax to a lore one, keep people from using time stop and mords, but introduce a whole lot of items that fundamentally break the game

Now you have barbarian weaponmasters that rage to 730 health, crit for 230, and have terrifying rage at the cost of 3 tumble ac and still otherwise have full umd access. The only difference is scrolls cast at the end of the round instead of the beginning

[Adam Antium]

Also you can now mord's 4+ times per round with these weapons, and they don't interrupt your combat cycle because they're throwing weapons not scrolls, and it's still an RNJesus solution to what was mostly fine before.

These weapons also do damage - very high damage for some builds - which may interrupt casters, but even without that, it softens them up considerably with 4 APR and with every attack hitting because apparently they needed +10 or +20 AB on them.


We sacrificed something people whined about for no good reason other than it was Irongron's "vision" - "people are dispelling me! I hate UMD!" - for something utterly insane that does it even harder, if you're lucky enough to find the items.

[Dr. B]

I don't have time to cherry pick and snip quotations, so I will be general:

The claim, made by several people in this thread, that these criticisms are overblown or rude strikes me as a form of gaslighting. This update is matter of factly a huge mistake and is rightfully described as such. The original post is not rude at all, even if the criticism is vociferous.

Second: Irongron and co, you really should start seeking feedback from balance experts before implementing updates that pertain to balance issues. It might mitigate some of the criticism that these updates are inviting, and you could spare yourself a big headache if you did so.

Third: this update fails to accomplish its purpose, anyway. It limits counterplay to too limited a number of classes/builds, and that counterplay is way overtuned.

Fourth: might I suggest adding damage shields (Mestil's Acid Sheath, Elemental Shield, Death Armor) to the top of the Breach list? That would solve a lot of balance issues. (This latter idea is courtesy of Scurvy, by the way).

[Cortex]

all of these changes make me sad

i dont know how anyone can defend them when all they accomplish is widen the gap between classes and benefit OOC driven hamstering of OP loot gear. i honestly miss the days i looked forward to updates.

[Twily]

This update being a mistake is your opinion and while it's an opinion you have a right to, you have NO right to say that the developers should be 'fired', or other similar remarks along these lines.
This server wouldn't exist at all without dedicated people working their backsides off without pay to keep it afloat, and players being like that to the developers/contributers can and HAS caused them to lose interest in working on the game before.

Is that really a win? To be so demoralizing to someone who released a change you don't like that they quit?


Offer feedback, Irongron has said he is open to and watching feedback, so give him feedback.

But if you're just going to be a prick, go find another server.


PS: I know not everyone has been like this, this isn't meant for the people who are offering normal feedback.

[Nitro]

+10 items. Wow this takes me back to the days just after the amia split when people had a bunch of really crazy legacy items.

[Dr. B]

Arelith does seem to be trending toward a kind of balance, I suppose.

When casters and mundanes both have the tools to one shot without counterplay, it doesn't really matter what you play. Every build is viable.

There is a kind of irony here, in that this looks a lot like Vanilla NWN on a lvl 30 server. I'm not complaining about this, since I have publicly said many times Vanilla NWN had its own kind of balance, its just that some people don't like it. PvP tended to be short, brutal, and favored quickdraws of well-heeled combos or need-to-have items.

*Edit: After seeing stacks. Concurring with Peppermint ratio now 3/1001.

I am not sure how to being replying to this. Besides the fact that it strains the definition of "balance" to encompass things that are imbalanced, or reduces balance to a matter of taste (cf. "alternative facts"), a meta that relies on "short, brutal, and favored quickdraws," which is what the latest updates are going to encourage, is terrible for a roleplaying server where interaction before PvP is both encouraged and required.

[Peppermint]

While I agree, Twily, I'm also kind of sympathetic.

This has been an ongoing trend for months. After firing the balance team, we were assured things would "improve", only for things to take a stark drop off a cliff. With Irongron's lengthy essay, we were again assured things would "improve", only to receive more of the same.

Players have been giving feedback only for it to be ignored, and have received assurances only for them to be dismantled. It's clear that someone either doesn't care, or is very, very out of touch. From the outside, it looks very much like the team is having an absolute meltdown. The number of hasty, kneejerk updates released has been very reminiscent of the period before Mithreas stepped down.

At this juncture, we're at a boiling point. The administration is dropping the ball hard and clearly has no interest in righting the course. Players feel they have no recourse anymore except to vent their frustration.

I'm not saying it's commendable, or that they should. But I certainly share their frustration and, privately, much the same sentiments.

Something has to give.

[Adam Antium]

all of these changes make me sad

i dont know how anyone can defend them when all they accomplish is widen the gap between classes and benefit OOC driven hamstering of OP loot gear. i honestly miss the days i looked forward to updates.

Honestly, just stop playing the game. I did. When a game is no longer fun or well-made I stop playing.

Regarding Twily's reply: I am surprised we didn't get "then go to a different server" responses sooner. At least you're only saying it because someone was snarky, and not because they're just unhappy with the server updates. Progress of a kind.

Regarding this sentence however:

"Offer feedback, Irongron has said he is open to and watching feedback, so give him feedback."


That's just not true. They've said the lore change isn't going back, UMD and scrolls are pretty much dead and that's not changing. They've given no indication that the level of the lore requirements - which many people have already offered """feedback""" on - are going to be adjusted either. All that has happened is adding either trash items like rods of ghostly visage and dismissal, or utterly insanely broken items like rods of Greater Ruin or +20 on-hit Mord's throwing items. All of which also relies on RNG to find, doesn't foster roleplay or any kind of consistent economy like crafting did, and is just another in a long line of habitual "over-adjustment" updates where something needs to be tweaked or fixed and they take a nuclear missile to the problem.

It's not even consistent with what some people have stated again here, with the supposed reasoning of "mundanes shouldn't be reading scrolls, that hurts my fee-fee's and makes me the big sad, mundanes should be mundane." They say that and then laud the addition of high-powered magical on-hit items or magical rods that require no investment of any kind mechanically, you just find one and you get to point at someone. Good artistic vision. "Point stick, shoot magic." Sometimes you throw a knife into someone instead. Filthy mundanes aren't supposed to know how to read. Have access to high-tier magic? Apparently, sure. But just no reading.

They don't appear to be listening to feedback about their updates being awful and stopping the train they're on. Everything they've been doing has been doubling-down on the notion that their update is good, they just need to do MORE of them to make things better. The notion of "maybe this road we're going on is bad, here's why" is not welcome and is refused. The emperor has no clothes.

[NauVaseline]

I'm just going to be as blunt as possible because sugarcoating things has proven totally useless.

This update being a mistake is your opinion

It's an educated, well-informed one. It's a very commonly shared opinion among people who actually had a clue about how NWN worked. It's pretty telling that most of the people defending it were mostly not mechanically savvy or part of the crop of new players from NWN:EE.

This server wouldn't exist at all without dedicated people working their backsides off without pay to keep it afloat, and players being like that to the developers/contributers can and HAS caused them to lose interest in working on the game before.

This get's them the benefit of the doubt and moral support. No one should be spared criticism for destructive decisions in the present because of good decisions in the past. And yes, +10 attack bonus with on hit instant debuff's should absolutely result in a removal of push powers and at least get gated behind a 'review process'. I'm not going to praise something that makes me puke. I'm not going to offer applause as I watch the server I basically grew up on mutate into something wholly pedestrian and skewered in style and substance.

Is that really a win? To be so demoralizing to someone who released a change you don't like that they quit?

Offer feedback

When plenty, plenty of feedback has been offered with logical reasons why things don't work and the response is to double down and make it worse... yea. History reminder, since I am certain you were around: Mithreas giving the server to Irongron after he'd been called out repeatedly on the forums was the best thing that ever happen to Arelith. I don't want Irongron to give it up, but I want him to take the wool off his eyes and see this isn't working the way he's implementing it.

But if you're just going to be a prick, go find another server.

1) It's easy to dismiss harsh, merited criticism and commentary as being a prick when you are emotionally invested for some reason.
2) It's definitely dickish to tell someone to go find another server when you know this is all there is.
3) Because it all there really is, people are going to be a lot more invested in what happens to it.
4) Watching something great get worse and worse, is incredibly sad.

tl;dr what's happening to arelith sucks because we are utterly powerless to stop it's sickness from worsening.

Honestly, just stop playing the game. I did. When a game is no longer fun or well-made I stop playing.

This basically where I'm at. The sandbox has been pissed in and idk if it'll ever be the same you just cant fix things the route they're going.

EDIT: I mean, Durvayas quit. Durvayas never leaves. Arelith's off the rails.

EDIT 2: words

[Sockss]

This update being a mistake is your opinion and while it's an opinion you have a right to, you have NO right to say that the developers should be 'fired', or other similar remarks along these lines.
This server wouldn't exist at all without dedicated people working their backsides off without pay to keep it afloat, and players being like that to the developers/contributers can and HAS caused them to lose interest in working on the game before.

Is that really a win? To be so demoralizing to someone who released a change you don't like that they quit?


Offer feedback, Irongron has said he is open to and watching feedback, so give him feedback.

But if you're just going to be a prick, go find another server.


PS: I know not everyone has been like this, this isn't meant for the people who are offering normal feedback.

I refuse to believe that anyone on the dev team is incompetent enough to think that is a good idea, so it /must/ be malicious.

You can disagree whether it's addition is incompetent, I guess, but you're not on the dev team so I don't really care to criticise you. It wouldn't change anything and I doubt we would get anywhere.

There's no need for players to be competent, but a dire need for developers to be.

[Peppermint]

2) It's definitely dickish to tell someone to go find another server when you know this is all there is.

This really cannot be overstated.

It would not be hyperbole to say that whoever is in charge of these updates could singlehandedly kill Neverwinter Nights as a viable roleplay platform.

What a legacy to have.

Is it any wonder players are so disappointed?

[Dr. B]

But if you're just going to be a prick, go find another server.

My sense is that you are using this kind of language because you are intentionally trying to get this thread locked. Its appearance in a post condemning impoliteness is also a bit hypocritical, no?

[Basementfellow]

its ok guys, we'll always have Puerta de Baldur

[Apokriphos]

Let's return to the issue at hand.

Mordenkeins Disjunction removes - with no save - 6 spells on the breach list and 10 SR, along with forcing a roll to dispel on every remaining buff the target has, even if the item caster level was 1, this would 5% chance dispel per remaining buff. Now let's do this 4-5x a round, with +10-20 ab boost.

If these hit, and we should assume they do, this will definitely remove the oh so scary damage shields. It will also remove all of the top tier buffs. The ones a caster usually uses to survive a melee attack. Though, generally, pvp Instigators having +5 attack bonus on weapons makes the damage reduction useless in most cases.

This situation is death to any caster if the mord on weapon user instigates the fight.

In future fights this hypothetical caster experiences will require him or her to be really trigger happy to avoid dying to a (6×(4-5)) buff removal with no save burst.

This disincentives roleplay and interesting storytelling in the world we all care about. It incentivizes click and your dead actions with almost no story at all.

Is this what we want?

[Twily]

I was going to avoid voicing my opinion on the update since there's already so much said, but seeing as I'm already in the thread now:

If these items are as strong as people say, I do think they need changing.

The big update served as a nerf to UMD, which I do like, in theory.
I've personally really never been big on the Mord's, WordOfFaith and Timestop scroll meta in combat.

The addition of these items seems like it could quickly shift it from them having needed a few points in UMD before, to needing no points in it now, while still being able to do the exact same thing, albeit if they find the right items.
With the stats on some of the items that have been stated here though, it lets most characters still do the same thing while raising the peak even higher, allowing for the creation of builds with stats far above what Arelith has traditionally tried to maintain.

This is the part of particular concern to me.
AB from gear has always been very limited on items, and if items like these exist, there will be people who make builds based around them and then farm areas to get them. It's in the hands of these builds where they'll get extremely out of hand, because the high AB on the item won't be offsetting a lower AB due to lack of proficiency, it'll simply be adding to their already solid AB. This is especially bad when they get multiple attacks per round.


I personally would suggest toning down the new items and rods, and lowering the lore requirement to use scrolls.
One idea I had would be going for something around a 40/45/50 lore for 7/8/9th level scrolls respectively, with gear and BardicKnowledge not counting towards this.

It would allow characters that invest in it to still use the old strategies as they did before, but would require a heavy investment into the skill, almost certainly including EpicSkillFocus.
This would be considerably more investment than was required before without moving the items completely out of reach.
With scrolls more reachable, items and rods that achieve similar effects at lower tiers could be added, which maintains a reason to invest in the ability to use the scrolls since they would still be the strongest option. The items and rods would then serve as a suitable backup for those who either can't or don't want to invest into the skills.


Alternatively, The items could be tweaked to be based around having multiple attacks per round with the AB they currently have.
As one example, instead of Mord's on the items it could have lesser breach, requiring several hits to have the same effect(which isn't hard if they have a massive AB boost)



PS: I still stand by my statement that feedback can be given without being rude. If you feel rudeness is the only way to deliver your message, take a step back and a deep breath, and think about what you're actually trying to convey; write that. Rudeness does nothing but undermine your message.