Skills vs skill vs lvl.

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Reallylongunneededplayername
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Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:49 pm

I already voiced my views on lockpick versus Door.

But let's do Disguises this time. Preform/Bluff vs. Spot.
Some folk have focussed hard in bluff/preform, I wager they can reach easily 90-100 with the right feats, items and build
Same goes for Spot, I bet a full on cleric, Wisdom high, 32 skill points in it, Drop some spot gear, Might even pass 100.

Thing is, Power skilling in these matters are not RP nor player friendly. RP won't progress if there can be folk going " lol I is breaks all disguises" and it is also painfull for those who ain't 30.

My solution: Cap bluff, Preform, Spot all three at 50 and put it in the hands of lady luck.

It helps the following: lvl 20 or maybe even lower stand a chance against lvl 30's and overall makes things balanced and more fair.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Nitro » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:04 pm

If they're all capped at 50 then everyone with even a nominal investment in spot will break all disguises within a couple of ticks at worst, instantly at best. You'd have d20 vs d20 with one person allowed to reroll over and over until they get the winning roll. That would make any disguise completely obsolete.
Reallylongunneededplayername wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:49 pm
Thing is, Power skilling in these matters are not RP nor player friendly. RP won't progress if there can be folk going " lol I is breaks all disguises" and it is also painfull for those who ain't 30.
And I especially disagree with this. There's no build on Arelith that is guaranteed unbeatable in any aspect without sacrificing for it. Why shouldn't a person willing to sacrifice mechanical power to obtain the necessary skill ranks to break most disguises be able to do so?

To say that RP won't progress is straight up not true. Sometimes you lose, your disguise will get broken sooner or later, or someone will have a disguise you can't beat. You roll with the punches and continue the RP from there.

As for the disparity in power between levels, that's the case with literally all mechanics though? A 30 will beat a 20 in anything you challenge them to (barring mechanical incompetence from the 30) Why should this one aspect have an artificial cap on it to make high levels weaker?
Last edited by Nitro on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Radki » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:26 pm

Not to mention that capping perform will cripple bard characters, or more precisely their song. Since 30th lvl bard requires 100 perform to work out at the highest performance so this balance of d20 to d20, unless capped only for detecting disguises, will kick all bard pure princes and princesses into half, eat, chew and then spit out.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Subutai » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:56 pm

I think a better way to start this is to encourage people to not necessarily immediately jump on mechanical wins to inform their character's actions. If you examine someone and it says they're a pirate, or a slave, or you break their disguise in some other way, maybe just.... don't RP it, especially if the person whose disguise you broke is doing an interesting job with it. Instead of rushing to shout about them being a pirate in disguise because you saw "Beggar (Disguised)" and broke their disguise, take the time to enjoy the RP and have fun with it.

Especially is your character wouldn't necessarily examine them. If there's a beggar on the street, or a traveler in a cloak, or a farmer, or anything else, consider whether or not your character would even spend time examining them. Did you examine because your character decided to study them out of interest, or because you saw the "Disguised" tag and wanted to try to break the disguise? There's no need to rush to break a disguise.

If anything needs to change mechanically, I'd say we should just remove "(Disguised)", "(Disguised Slave)", and maybe even "(Slave)" from character names, and drop the "You fail to break a disguise" from the status. If you happen to examine someone, and they happen to be disguised, and you happen to break the disguise, then show a message that you broke the disguise. Otherwise, why would you know? It's a bit like when a DM says, "Roll spot check! Oh no, you failed." Well, now you know there was something to spot and you didn't see it. It's much more interesting to just never know, and not have to worry about metagaming.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Morgy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:18 pm

I strongly disagree with capping these skills. Capping bluff in such a way that any moderate spot level can break it will make it all but redundant. It is often used in high risk situations where remaining disguised is essential or in long term disguises.. if you cannot heavily invest in bluff it simply will not be reliable enough.

It would be almost as devastating as low capping stealth.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by azrael_athing » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:27 pm

I think I understand what OP is getting at here, and I'd like to think outside the box to get at the problem.

Perhaps there could be a bonus (positive/negative) in accordance to level difference to the calculation to even out the difference without interfearing with late-game investments. If you want to be the very best disguiser/spotter in the game you would still have to invest heavily (max out). But it would give the low-level with the right gear the same chance to disguise/spot.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:16 am

azrael_athing wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:27 pm
I think I understand what OP is getting at here, and I'd like to think outside the box to get at the problem.

Perhaps there could be a bonus (positive/negative) in accordance to level difference to the calculation to even out the difference without interfearing with late-game investments. If you want to be the very best disguiser/spotter in the game you would still have to invest heavily (max out). But it would give the low-level with the right gear the same chance to disguise/spot.
^
I think disguise is an RP cookie and that as often Epics can be a serious boulder in the road to further lower lvl's RP and ..I obviously know little to nothing about Bards and figured 50 should be more than a bard would need.

Anyway, A full wisdom cleric (+12?) that dip into spot 32 + skill feats +13 (?) that has the many spot giving equipment and gear (+???)
I don't know the full gear stuff but there are quite a few in the matrix can also go TS +15. You can get really high with spot. but let's take average joe with a mild intrest at spot that came to my random guessing to 50 spot at 30.

Now take a rogue; John the rat, At lvl 10 he got caught commiting a few crimes and is black listed from Tiny town, At 15 he highly invested in Bluff. 16 skill, 1 feat and equipment. So, Let's use guessing math and say 30 bluff.

Now John here can pass by most commoners but as soon he cames across a high lvl average joe the mildly intrested spot holder, He'll be toast.

Also, It's extreemly classism. We top at Cleric vs Bard (or Bard/Sorcerer. With Cleric spot build holding the crown on spot and Bard at disguise. (Though this is for Warlocks obviously great)

But Rogues and Assassins who in possible RP have a larger reason to use disguise, They fall way behind and to get as high as possible have to sacrifice so much in gear. (I tried a 0 cha rogue and came at 68 max, please, If you can beat that let me know)
And that is once they got to lvl 30.

Also, I really think there should be something like "You archieved perfect disguise" in where you are unable to break the disguise.
But I can imagine why there isn't.

But yeah, Why though: Cause spot only get's so far. I mean at what level of eyesight do you get x-ray vision (Wich by the way a lot of folk have IG). Once a person comes in with let's go the full swing: Completely unrelated to the character before this moment: Outfit, that fully covers the body, Weapon and helmet. For giggles, We even make the outfit a different armor type. You still " see " Ey, John the Rat!" (I might make a John the rat at this point cause the names sticking with me :P)

But all my ranting aside:

Maybe give rogues and Assassins +1 bluff extra each lvl, Remove TS spot.
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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Nitro » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:13 pm

If you actually want to get a near unbeatable bluff score without relying on Bard song, do a bard dump and go for perform instead of bluff. You can get the following gear bonuses for Perform:
6 Adamantine Bracer
5 Ruby Amulet
5 Blue Suede Shoes
3 Golden Crown
2 Silk Shirt (Or anything else thats enchantable)
2 Ring x2
2 Belt
2 Cloak
2 Weapon
2 Shield
33 Total
And then the rest:
33 from ranks
13 from SF and ESF
6 from gift
Lands us with a respectable 85 Perform, 90 if you buff up CHA (presuming starting CHA of 8, even more if you have more)

For bluff, we have 7 less points from gear since we don't get Blue Suede Shoes, Ruby Amulet or Golden Crown, having to replace them with generic +2 gear leaving us with a still very respectable 83 Bluff.

This means for perform a spotter is going to need 71 spot to even have a chance to spot you, 56 before applying TS, while for bluff the spotter will need 64 spot, 49 before TS. (This is of course on the assumption that people are in TS all the time, which they're not.)

That's good enough that only a very dedicated spotter will have any decent chance at breaking your disguise ever, and even if they do you still get the grace period of 6 minutes of safety from the godsave.

Giving +1 bluff per level would give rogues and Assassins literally unbeatable levels of bluff, it's fine as it is right now to be honest. A dedicated disguiser can avoid detection from the vast majority of the server, and against those he can't he still gets a godsave get out of jail free card.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Dreams » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:33 pm

It is a level playing field as it is.

Skill ranks + feats + 50 (item/buff)
vs
Skill ranks + feats + 50 (item/buff)

How a player acts with whatever information is up to them to determine based on their character. The only worry has got to be that there is equality in options for gearing for both sides of the equation.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by azrael_athing » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:06 pm

As dreams pointed out in his post, it is already a level playing field with one condition. LEVELS.

Your level dictate your skill rank, and that makes disguises a game played by and for epics. Here is where we need some action.

We don't want to level the playing field, we want to de-level the playing field! Se what I did there?

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Morgy » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:18 pm

Level 30 characters are not average joes. They are epically powerful beings. They may be ‘averagely’ invested in a skill compared to their equals, but compared to any low level player or average npc they should not be comparable in my opinion.

Most epic beings will have fought many powerful magical creatures and obtained powerful items, after all.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Subutai » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:52 pm

Morgy wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:18 pm
Level 30 characters are not average joes. They are epically powerful beings. They may be ‘averagely’ invested in a skill compared to their equals, but compared to any low level player or average npc they should not be comparable in my opinion.

Most epic beings will have fought many powerful magical creatures and obtained powerful items, after all.
I'll come back to suggestions and discussion later, but I just want to address this quick. While it's technically true, from a lore perspective, that level 30's are extremely powerful beings, I don't think it makes for a very good argument from a gameplay perspective, and really just serves to further the "RP begins at 30" perspective that is absolutely, and very damagingly, prevalent on Arelith.

The argument that level 30's should be the far and away best at everything is a very easy one to make, because at its core, it's true. But I don't think this is something we want to approach from a "compared to the lore" perspective. I think it's something to approach from a gameplay perspective particular to Arelith. Do we want to just say, "There's no point in using disguises until level 30", or even "There's no point in leaving Sencliff unless you're level 30 with max buff or perform"?

There have been really nice changes that have deemphasized the need to be level 30 for everything. Most recently, wand charges were improved to make them much more useful for non-30's to craft, which I think is a fantastic change and allows people to participate in RP and the economy before being max level.

I'd very much like to see the trend continue, and I hate to see level 30's paladining it up just because they can spot any disguised level 20 character from a mile off.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Zavandar » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:18 pm

Just because you call something a problem doesn't mean it is one

The proposed changes would make it one

Learn who has high spot and avoid them. How is enforcing a cap and therefore a coin flip cresting more rp than the current arrangement? You can try to break a disguise once a tick. That means on average nearly everyone's disguises would be broken after 12 minutes of rp

???
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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:49 pm

A skill cap of 50 is a horrible idea. It would take a minimum of 30 points in spot to break disguises and catch sneaks. And that is incredibly easy to reach. 50/50 is what you get if you only put skill points into something and get basic enchanted gear. It's the people who invest in feats who start to break beyond basic investment. Once people are in the 60s of a skill, that's when it becomes more viable to not be detected. This is how things are currently balanced.

In fact, even on level 20 servers things are balanced similarly. The numbers are just smaller. Stealth characters who want to be good at stealth need to invest feats into it. Detect characters who want to be good at detect need to invest feats into it. The moment you cap that number it removes value of feat investment, and skews the balance strongly towards the detector.

You'd have to entirely change how stealth/detect works if you wanted to cap it at 50, you'd have to remove stealth and detect from enchanting. Which is unfun, because the big thing about enchanting is it lets you customize your own gear so you're not reliant on gear drops in dungeons. It's one of the things I really like about the server.

You can't balance it around level 20s, because eventually people are going to hit level 30. Just like it would be a nightmare to balance PvP so level 20s can be competitive against level 30s.


IMO you're interpreting there to be a problem where there isn't one. To me it's the roleplay version of wanting a certain class to do a dungeon. With dungeoning, you wouldn't expect a single character to be able to do everything. When it comes to skill sets for RP, it's the same thing. Make friends, or hire people who can fill a role for you.

This is something that's frustrated me for years. Prior to coming to Arelith, on the server I used to play, every time people complained about stealth being OP I'd suggest they'd hire a character for detect. But nobody ever did. On Arelith I tell people, hey hire me if you want an abjurer to block your meeting from scryers. But very few people ever take me up on it, and instead I see people complaining about scryers OOC. I think these are things we could use as RP opportunities, hire people to make up for what our character can't do.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Subutai » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:00 pm

While I think the Spot vs. Disguise system is fine, there's one very key thing missing, imo.
D20SRD wrote: Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.
Emphasis mine.

This is what I see as the absolute key issue with Spot vs. Disguise on Arelith. There is no "If you don't draw any attention to yourself". There's no crossing through Cordor dressed as a humble traveler. There's no sitting in an tavern dressed as a peasant, or begging on the corner as a humble beggar. People always get to make spot checks against you, every tick, regardless. Ultimately, in many ways, it's because you are drawing attention to yourself purely by virtue of having the "(Disguised)" tag. If someone walks past with the tag, people who ordinarily wouldn't spend two second examining your description are suddenly examining you, purely because you're disguised.

In the vast majority of cases I've seen someone's disguise broken in public, they haven't been calling any attention to themselves whatsoever. They're not making a scene, often not even talking to anyone. They're just standing quietly like everyone else. It shouldn't be possible to make a spot check against these characters, since they're not drawing attention to themselves, let alone mechanically encouraged through a tag.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Ork » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:41 pm

I'd actually like to mention I examine everyone almost at a near constant pace, not because I wish to game disguise but often the descriptions help me frame how my character approaches the conversation. In fact, I actively have to remind myself not to constantly examine disguised folks..and that sucks.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Morgy » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:19 am

Subutai wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:52 pm
Morgy wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:18 pm
Level 30 characters are not average joes. They are epically powerful beings. They may be ‘averagely’ invested in a skill compared to their equals, but compared to any low level player or average npc they should not be comparable in my opinion.

Most epic beings will have fought many powerful magical creatures and obtained powerful items, after all.
I'll come back to suggestions and discussion later, but I just want to address this quick. While it's technically true, from a lore perspective, that level 30's are extremely powerful beings, I don't think it makes for a very good argument from a gameplay perspective, and really just serves to further the "RP begins at 30" perspective that is absolutely, and very damagingly, prevalent on Arelith.

The argument that level 30's should be the far and away best at everything is a very easy one to make, because at its core, it's true. But I don't think this is something we want to approach from a "compared to the lore" perspective. I think it's something to approach from a gameplay perspective particular to Arelith. Do we want to just say, "There's no point in using disguises until level 30", or even "There's no point in leaving Sencliff unless you're level 30 with max buff or perform"?

There have been really nice changes that have deemphasized the need to be level 30 for everything. Most recently, wand charges were improved to make them much more useful for non-30's to craft, which I think is a fantastic change and allows people to participate in RP and the economy before being max level.

I'd very much like to see the trend continue, and I hate to see level 30's paladining it up just because they can spot any disguised level 20 character from a mile off.
No it doesn’t contribute to ‘RP begins at 30’. You just can’t expect your low level character to compete in a skills match vs an epic the same as they couldn’t in a fight. If you are good at RP you can use that to adapt to whatever is going on around you in terms of being spotted.

I break disguises of low characters all the time, but because my character has no reason to suspect them of anything or approach them if they are being evasive, it is irrelevant. I have never had any RP issues as a low character interacting with epic characters and if I think they might be a threat to me RP-wise, I avoid them as I would any other, irrespective of level.

Epic characters are incredibly powerful lore wise and mechanically on Arelith. Fixed Level sounds more like what you’re describing to be honest.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Dreams » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:55 am

You need to look at changing player behavior for this, not skill mechanics. The only real issue is the availability of comparable/opposing skills on items.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by msheeler » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:04 pm

So, my thoughts on this:

1. I don't like that one skill (Spot) is used to oppose three skills - Hide, Bluff and Perform. As a rogue you could invest heavily in Hide and Bluff or Perform in the hopes of walking into town inconspicuously (Hide) and in Disguise (Bluff or Perform) and the opposing player gets to rely on the one skill to break both of yours. For this reason I would love to see a new skill added (since we have haks) that could be used to break disguises.

2. I do agree with the previous mention of everyone examining you simple because of the (Disguised) tag, regardless of whether or not you are just sitting at the bar as any common peasant might do enjoying a drink and some stew. Perhaps something that could be done is a applying a -10 unless the observer is actively looking (has the detect mode active) and perhaps we could apply modifiers based on range (-2 to spot for every meter away) thus forcing the 'spotter' to actively detect and approach disguised people for optimal chances to break the disguise. This could still be meta'd a bit by toggling it on and off, but it's a step in the right direction. Another idea would be to apply a bonus to the disguise for wearing a helm or hood as a part of the disguise.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:36 pm


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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by msheeler » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:44 pm

Point taken.

However, there are many points to the disguise skill as written up there that are not addressed. For example the range of DC affected by what you are disguising yourself as, or the fact that as mentioned previously if the disguised character is not doing anything to attract attention there is no check made. Given that the system has the (disguised) tag after the name it creates a response of wanting to check by examining the character.

I still like the idea of incorporating DC modifiers base on wether or not the player is actively detecting with search mode activated and some sort of distance modifier where it is harder to break the disguise of someone standing across a room and/or has a hood or helmet on.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Nitro » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:22 pm

The quote earlier is incomplete from the SRD spot article, and the section a little bit below it immediately contradicts it.
Usually, an individual makes a Spot check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and each hour thereafter. If you casually meet many different creatures, each for a short time, check once per day or hour, using an average Spot modifier for the group.
So even if you're a traveler going down the road, minding his own business being inconspicuous, someone you meet on the road would likely get a spot check in passing. This is represented decently in Arelith by needing to be in medium range to examine someone to begin with.

Detect mode bonuses/penalties could be neat, but also pointless as you can stancedance in and out of detect mode freely and most of the time it doesn't matter if you are or are not in detect mode. And ranged penalties could get silly real fast when you get people crab walking up casually to examine someone while they crab walk away to minimize their roll.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:49 pm

I think combining hide and move silent into "Stealth" and Bluff and Perform into "Disguise" and Listen and Spot into "Perception" would be nice.

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Ork » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:15 pm

Anime Sword Fighter wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:49 pm
I think combining hide and move silent into "Stealth" and Bluff and Perform into "Disguise" and Listen and Spot into "Perception" would be nice.
Agreed. Remove perform entirely. It's taxing enough to invest in a skill that shpuld just be a complete class feature (bard song).

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Re: Skills vs skill vs lvl.

Post by Nitro » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm

Ork wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:15 pm
Anime Sword Fighter wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:49 pm
I think combining hide and move silent into "Stealth" and Bluff and Perform into "Disguise" and Listen and Spot into "Perception" would be nice.
Agreed. Remove perform entirely. It's taxing enough to invest in a skill that shpuld just be a complete class feature (bard song).
I think we'd have to put some nerfs on bard song if all bards got to enjoy the maxed out version of the bardsong for their level without any skill/gear investment. As it stands the bard/curse song is the single most powerful class feature(s) in the game, only mitigated by it actually taking effort to reach their full potential.

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