So, the new monk update is really cool. But I'm actually rather confused why unarmed is excluded from the focuses and specializations a monk gets for free. Unarmed monks are already worse than their weapon wielding counterparts, and now you're forced to throw a lot of feats at it if you want to be able to use it efficiently versus just having your class weapons given to you for free.
So could we maybe patch unarmed into there too, or get the reasoning for why it was excluded?
Monk update & unarmed
Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators, Contributors
-
Peppermint
- Posts: 1860
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm
Re: Monk update & unarmed
Some interesting ideas, but lots of concerns here too.
With the glut of free feats and katana available as a two-hand/one-hand monk APR hybrid, not to mention ki strike applying AB/damage bonuses to the monk's weapon ala weapon master, am I to understand that the intention of this update was to replace weapon masters with two-handing monks*?
Unarmed monks weren't rescued from the heap. They lose the only thing they had going for them (i.e. insane kiting potential) in exchange for enough offense to make them... still worse than any other melee class.
On the other hand, I see no reason to play a Fighter 20/WM 7/Rogue 3 when you can play a Monk 20/Rogue 3/WM 7 instead. Similar AC to a traditional sword and board WM, loads more damage than a 2h WM, and all the monk cookies (e.g. mind immune, improved evasion, spell resistance, the wholeness of body/empty body buffs) to boot.
(* Can we coin the term 'Weebmaster' for this? Or maybe 'Weaboo Master'?)
With the glut of free feats and katana available as a two-hand/one-hand monk APR hybrid, not to mention ki strike applying AB/damage bonuses to the monk's weapon ala weapon master, am I to understand that the intention of this update was to replace weapon masters with two-handing monks*?
Unarmed monks weren't rescued from the heap. They lose the only thing they had going for them (i.e. insane kiting potential) in exchange for enough offense to make them... still worse than any other melee class.
On the other hand, I see no reason to play a Fighter 20/WM 7/Rogue 3 when you can play a Monk 20/Rogue 3/WM 7 instead. Similar AC to a traditional sword and board WM, loads more damage than a 2h WM, and all the monk cookies (e.g. mind immune, improved evasion, spell resistance, the wholeness of body/empty body buffs) to boot.
(* Can we coin the term 'Weebmaster' for this? Or maybe 'Weaboo Master'?)
Re: Monk update & unarmed
How do you get more damage than a 2h WM and similiar ac to their ac? you sort of need to trade either str or dex. meaning you can either go dex and lower your damage significantly or you go str but at that point you might as well go 30 monk to trade umd in favour of BOTH ac (with epic dodge) and damage (free epic spec and imp crit).Peppermint wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:13 pmI see no reason to play a Fighter 20/WM 7/Rogue 3 when you can play a Monk 20/Rogue 3/WM 7 instead. Similar AC to a traditional sword and board WM, loads more damage than a 2h WM, and all the monk cookies (e.g. mind immune, improved evasion, spell resistance, the wholeness of body/empty body buffs) to boot
Currently playing: Seth Xylo
Re: Monk update & unarmed
I was a bit puzzled about the lack of unarmed weapon focus feats. Why all the weapons and no love for unarmed strike. The best reason I could come up with was it was designed to offset existing unarmed abilities, namely the 1d20 damage at level 20 and the stunning fist/quivering palm bonuses. However, we can split hairs as to whether or not these are actually useful enough to warrant needing to take WF and EWF in unarmed as feats to get the other bonuses associated with it.
Re: Monk update & unarmed
1D20 with a 20x2 crit range isn't actually good though. It's an average of 10.5 damage with abysmal crit rates and crit damage.
Re: Monk update & unarmed
Unarmed had a decent niche pre-EE, when stun fist lasted 3 rounds. So much for that.
Re: Monk update & unarmed
I'd like to use this thread to log some of my experiences and first impressions with the class both pre- and post-update. I'll be adding to this post as I experience more.
Monk Speed: Pre-update, monks at level 30 had enough speed that they could enter into both Detect and Stealth modes without suffering any drop to their movement rate. They could also move at their full walk speed while lightly encumbered, even in Stealth. Heavily encumbered, they could move at their full movement speed while outside of Detect/Stealth Mode. Haste and Expeditious Retreat also increased monk speed.
Post-update, monks cannot enter both Detect and Stealth modes at once without a speed drop. They can move at their full walk speed while lightly encumbered, outside of Stealth/Detect modes. Heavily encumbered, they are slowed down. Haste and Expeditious Retreat no longer work on pure monks, although Haste's other benefits still apply.
Pre-update, I relied fairly heavily on monk speed in PvP. As mentioned in previous posts, it allowed for extreme kiting potential. The increased speed also had an RP application, as it allowed my character to outpace and re-position other players when eavesdropping. I look forward to thinking up new strategies and ways to use the newly provided tools.
Blinding Speed: Tied into the previous section, Blinding Speed does not confer any benefit to movement speed. However, the statistical benefits are still present. I'll need to play with this a little more to see just how well it fits with the monks new kit.
Accuracy / Damage: I gave this a test run in the Orclands. I've noticed a +5 increase in attack power, raising my character's AB from below average to average. In PvE, the difference is very noticeable. Pre-update, PvE encounters tended to be drawn out thanks to only a few hits landing each turn. Post-update, encounters move along much more quickly.
E-Dodge: Coupled with an already respectably high AC, E-Dodge makes it exceptionally harder for NPCs to hit my monk. This, coupled with the increased AB, have made encounters much more favourable. The area boss encounter in the Orclands is no longer as threatening as it used to be, as the boss's opening strike is often mitigated by the E-Dodge, and my monk can now reliably retaliate. Hits still happen from occasion, but most of my incoming damage was through non-resistible spells, and traps.
Wholeness of Body: I've already noticed a significant increase in this ability's viability, both in terms of the amount healed and the frequency at which it can be used. The 10 minute cooldown works well, as areas tend to take that long to clear. Pre-update, a pure monk would gain 60 health points from Wholeness of Body. I haven't tested the full extent of the New Wholeness, but I doubt I'll ever get enough HP to do that. I haven't experienced the added Restoration benefits. Thus far, I've been using it during down-time between engagements, but I imagine it being invaluable during harder combat situations. I wonder if it can be used while CC'd.
My experience in the Orclands: The encounters move much more quickly, and with noticeably less damage received. Before, I often dreaded PvE - not because the encounters were difficult, but because damage output was so low that encounters often took a long time. PvE combat moves much more fluidly now. I've noticed the down-time between battles has increased, if only because of the reduced movement speed. One thing I previously enjoyed as a monk was the ability to move from one encounter to the next at a breezy pace. These two qualities (long battles/low-downtime vs. short battles/longer downtime) have been balanced out, and I'm still getting a feel for them.
I'll try and put my character in more interesting situations and leave my findings here. I'm looking forward to seeing what new benefits/drawbacks there are to discover.
Monk Speed: Pre-update, monks at level 30 had enough speed that they could enter into both Detect and Stealth modes without suffering any drop to their movement rate. They could also move at their full walk speed while lightly encumbered, even in Stealth. Heavily encumbered, they could move at their full movement speed while outside of Detect/Stealth Mode. Haste and Expeditious Retreat also increased monk speed.
Post-update, monks cannot enter both Detect and Stealth modes at once without a speed drop. They can move at their full walk speed while lightly encumbered, outside of Stealth/Detect modes. Heavily encumbered, they are slowed down. Haste and Expeditious Retreat no longer work on pure monks, although Haste's other benefits still apply.
Pre-update, I relied fairly heavily on monk speed in PvP. As mentioned in previous posts, it allowed for extreme kiting potential. The increased speed also had an RP application, as it allowed my character to outpace and re-position other players when eavesdropping. I look forward to thinking up new strategies and ways to use the newly provided tools.
Blinding Speed: Tied into the previous section, Blinding Speed does not confer any benefit to movement speed. However, the statistical benefits are still present. I'll need to play with this a little more to see just how well it fits with the monks new kit.
Accuracy / Damage: I gave this a test run in the Orclands. I've noticed a +5 increase in attack power, raising my character's AB from below average to average. In PvE, the difference is very noticeable. Pre-update, PvE encounters tended to be drawn out thanks to only a few hits landing each turn. Post-update, encounters move along much more quickly.
E-Dodge: Coupled with an already respectably high AC, E-Dodge makes it exceptionally harder for NPCs to hit my monk. This, coupled with the increased AB, have made encounters much more favourable. The area boss encounter in the Orclands is no longer as threatening as it used to be, as the boss's opening strike is often mitigated by the E-Dodge, and my monk can now reliably retaliate. Hits still happen from occasion, but most of my incoming damage was through non-resistible spells, and traps.
Wholeness of Body: I've already noticed a significant increase in this ability's viability, both in terms of the amount healed and the frequency at which it can be used. The 10 minute cooldown works well, as areas tend to take that long to clear. Pre-update, a pure monk would gain 60 health points from Wholeness of Body. I haven't tested the full extent of the New Wholeness, but I doubt I'll ever get enough HP to do that. I haven't experienced the added Restoration benefits. Thus far, I've been using it during down-time between engagements, but I imagine it being invaluable during harder combat situations. I wonder if it can be used while CC'd.
My experience in the Orclands: The encounters move much more quickly, and with noticeably less damage received. Before, I often dreaded PvE - not because the encounters were difficult, but because damage output was so low that encounters often took a long time. PvE combat moves much more fluidly now. I've noticed the down-time between battles has increased, if only because of the reduced movement speed. One thing I previously enjoyed as a monk was the ability to move from one encounter to the next at a breezy pace. These two qualities (long battles/low-downtime vs. short battles/longer downtime) have been balanced out, and I'm still getting a feel for them.
I'll try and put my character in more interesting situations and leave my findings here. I'm looking forward to seeing what new benefits/drawbacks there are to discover.