Scry + Components

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RedGiant
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Scry + Components

Post by RedGiant » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:37 pm

Simple idea....scry is once per rest, notoriously in short duration, and its counter due to item updates is now nearly ubiquitous. It was a great QoL update when a failed try didn't zap your 1/day usage, but it is still 5 components a pop to try.

I'm wondering if the requirement be removed?

Also, I idly wonder...how many of the epic foci eat components? I wouldn't mind just making all epic spells component free.
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Hazard
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Hazard » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:01 am

I really can't wait for the suggestion thread to open up. My journals are filling up with ideas that I think we need to fill in certain gaps/fix problems.

Personally I don't mind spell components. I like using them and making them and the cost for scrying isn't so bad, but if the cost were removed it would probably take me a long time to even notice, because that's how significant the cost is.

Scry really is weak though. Yes, you can luck out... But basically anyone (except for a few pure class builds) can essentially be protected non-stop from being scried, and the duration hasn't been extended yet, and it is ONCE per rest. 5 spell components is a lot.

I'd rather see the duration increased. Could have a -scry long/-scry short toggle or something to go between standard 1 minute peek or a 5 minute one.

It's hard to keep this to feedback and not just make more suggestions. I guess my main point is it's weak and expensive. That's how I've always felt about scry, despite the examples of how useful it can be when it is.

Nekonecro
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Nekonecro » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 am

I'd actually be happier if we could turn the camera when scrying, too often I get views of the black void because of a bad angle.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Hazard » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:16 am

Nekonecro wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 am
I'd actually be happier if we could turn the camera when scrying, too often I get views of the black void because of a bad angle.
YES.

There's also the 'player name turning blue in the player list' bug that lets people easily metagame that they are being scried and who is doing it. It's practically impossible to prove someone isn't typing because of this bug too if all they do is be quiet or change how they're speaking.

Haven't seen it happen in a long time, but you can also glitch out and get teleported to the target. You will follow them like an NPC, unable to do anything until you relog and then you'll just be stuck there with them. AWKWARD. Especially when I once had a look for someone, found them in the fugue and then found myself there :| .. Or when the server's #1 bad scary villain at the time literally falls from the ceiling into your lap. Hello!

Scry is sad. Please give scry love.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:48 am

Yeah considering the success/fail rate I think it should be free. I'd even go so far as to say it should be like -teleport, something you get for free at 21st level with Greater Divination, and give Diviners a better top-level ability. Like maybe "scry location", letting you scry an area you visited before and with 100% success unless blocked by another diviner. Scrying a specific area is potentially much more useful than a single person.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:17 pm

Lol Scry is already so good clerics take 3 feats in Divination just to have access to it. They have a way to view conversations for longer then a short window of time. It's called spies, and there is no reason to ever have a rogue do anything if you can just scry someone for 30 minutes straight by stacking your rest up to -80.

Scry is useful for finding people, and murdering them. Just like -ward teleport is good for stopping people from teleporting away. Abilities have their uses and purposes, and the ability to safely look across the world and spy on people with no personal danger to yourself I'd say is a pretty good deal.

Like, spellcasters are already in such a good place utility wise the majority of faction leaders choose them. Divination already allows you to know when you are being scried, which is probably why so many epic characters around the server choose that feat. Because it drastically decreases the chances of 15 fully warded people showing up to beat the crap out of you at the nearest portal source.

If your attempt to scry fails however it shouldn't use spell components.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by -XXX- » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:47 pm

I agree with Cerk, scry's good. It could use some tweaks, but in essence it's fine as it is.
No ability should be perfect - just choose wisely and avoid those whose downsides you don't like, I guess.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by RedGiant » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:36 am

I would be happy in the event that tries don't take components. What alerted me to this dynamic was trying to discern the location of an ally who was so warded. I tried five times throughout the night, then on the last try...finally noticed the handy components message. HALF THE BAG WAS GONE. Eek.

That's steep for really doing nothing.

As for the other arguments here, my hunch is cleric loading divination feats probably has to do more with extending true seeing than it does scry...but I could be wrong. I also think increasing the currently pitiful duration will hardly lead to thirty minute sessions. Right now, unless you are dealing with some fast typers, you're lucky to get one complete thought and a reply during a typical conversation. You are MUCH more likely get a brief snippet of idling! yaaay.
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Like redgiant said, its far more likely to get a single line of dialogue or nothing. It could stand to see aome tweaking.

I see multiple magical institutes create rp items that are pillars meant to be magical watchtowers. Might be cool to see an art craft only epic divineers can make, that has SeeInvis and good detextion skills, and functions as something you can -investigate to find out the character types of those who traffic a certain location. Guess im kinda veering into suggestion territory though.
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:47 am

I just think a toggle between 1 minute scry and 5 minute scry would really do the trick.

It would be much more satisfying if I could have a longer peek. 5 minutes is still a peek. Maybe the longer version will cost more piety/components/something to prevent people from just getting very tired and spamming it+rest. Maybe it only works if you have a certain amount of rest? 20%+

3 minutes. Idunnowhatever.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Nitro » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:33 am

It's explicitly not made for listening in on conversations though. Its intended use is to locate people and find out what they're up to in the very instant you cast the spell.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:41 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:33 am
It's explicitly not made for listening in on conversations though. Its intended use is to locate people and find out what they're up to in the very instant you cast the spell.
3 or 5 minutes still won't let you listen in on a conversation.
It's not like minutes of a real conversation where people have expression, and react and talk. It's typed roleplay. You're not going to get much more than you already do. The idea is that you get 'something' rather than nothing more often.

"find out what they're up to" - Exactly.
You can't do that in 1 minute without fluking it.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:35 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:41 am
Nitro wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:33 am
It's explicitly not made for listening in on conversations though. Its intended use is to locate people and find out what they're up to in the very instant you cast the spell.
3 or 5 minutes still won't let you listen in on a conversation.
It's not like minutes of a real conversation where people have expression, and react and talk. It's typed roleplay. You're not going to get much more than you already do. The idea is that you get 'something' rather than nothing more often.

"find out what they're up to" - Exactly.
You can't do that in 1 minute without fluking it.
Not to mention you lose at least 30 seconds of that minute to a loading screen.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:40 am

Point is, if you make scrying more effective people are just going to have to start casting anti scry spells more often. Which would just be really annoying tbh. #1 Because it will make UMD even more mandatory and #2 because I don't feel like walking around <FOIG> all the time. I find the visual effects unappealing. Maybe if scry had a chance to feedback and let you know exactly who scried you ICly, so there is a chance you can be exposed and scriers will think twice before they spy on faction leaders / their crush all day. So that the ability actually involves some kind of risk and allows counterplay by the person you are spying on.

Currently, scriers are highly valued by most of the factions on the server. That tells me scry right now is in a very powerful place. Why turn it up to 11? How often have people been outted because they've been. "Scried with someone." By increasing the duration you are just removing all doubt or plausible deniability.

I understand the scriers in this thread saying the spell could be better. But it is good enough that I'd take it on a cleric just for the -scry benefits of it. Even if it doesn't always yield perfect results it quite often can yield gems which is value enough.

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:43 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:40 am
Point is, if you make scrying more effective people are just going to have to start casting anti scry spells more often. Which would just be really annoying tbh. #1 Because it will make UMD even more mandatory and #2 because I don't feel like walking around <FOIG> all the time. I find the visual effects unappealing. Maybe if scry had a chance to feedback and let you know exactly who scried you ICly, so there is a chance you can be exposed and scriers will think twice before they spy on faction leaders / their crush all day. So that the ability actually involves some kind of risk and allows counterplay by the person you are spying on.

Currently, scriers are highly valued by most of the factions on the server. That tells me scry right now is in a very powerful place. Why turn it up to 11? How often have people been outted because they've been. "Scried with someone." By increasing the duration you are just removing all doubt or plausible deniability.

I understand the scriers in this thread saying the spell could be better. But it is good enough that I'd take it on a cleric just for the -scry benefits of it. Even if it doesn't always yield perfect results it quite often can yield gems which is value enough.
:roll:

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Re: Scry + Components

Post by magistrasa » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:35 am

Out of curiosity, Cerk: Have you played a scrier before?

I shared your opinion not long ago when I first started in Arelith. That -scry was amazing and possibly OP and that there's no way taking it on any politically-involved character would be anything less that worth the investment. But now that I'm playing someone who regularly attempts scrying, it's laughable to hear the opinion.

Almost anyone worth scrying on is already going around warded at all times, and even when they're not and you successfully catch a glimpse, you're more likely to see this than anything else (in no particular order of likelihood):
1) The target is AFK in their quarter
2) They're in the middle of a mindless grind*
3) They close a door behind them and you get stuck and can't see anything
4) They type slower than paint dries on a wall
5) You spent most of the scry time in a loading screen so you barely have the time to get your bearings before you're yanked out of it

The best function for it, I've discovered, is simply to either find out where someone is, and/or whether they're busy so I can send them a message without interrupting something. Or if I've already sent a message and they're taking forever to answer it, a checkup to see if they're on their way to me or if they're more interested in whatever they're doing.

I'm with the majority opinion, here. Cool ability in theory, but the execution leaves something to be desired.

*In -scry's defense, I've used this a few times as an opportunity to "coincidentally" be in the right place and the right time, and get a quick XP/gold gathering buddy. It's led to some pretty fun RP, so I'm slightly less annoyed with this one.

Beard Master Flex
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Re: Scry + Components

Post by Beard Master Flex » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:23 am

I’m all for no spell component cost for wizards on a failed attempt.

Having really only played divine diviner’s I’ve never really felt the piety cost to be anything more then a mild inconvenience (time to go tickle five plants)

Having the clairvoyance requirement removed a while back was a nice book to divine characters too.

That being said I’m in Cerks camp with this, I took it on a Druid that literally spent three feats just for the ability and I have no complaints other then the awkward teleport bug, camera issues etc...

I don’t really see what more someone could want for it other then less bugs. To me it’s always been just a tool to find who I wanted when I wanted to find them so then I could go spy on them in person or dispatch spies in my stead.

Anything more increased functionality seems to be excess (though I’ll gladly use it!)

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