Cordor Elections & Assassinations

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:24 am

Kill the King. Sleep with Amn. Marry the Chancellor.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:15 am

There is a bit of usefulness in having an NPC Figure in Cordor for DM use when things enter problem territory. Rarely used, but it allows us to shift things back IC. Both major starting places (Cordor and Skal) are like this for that reason. I don't see that ever changing.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Wytchee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:24 am
Kill the King. Sleep with Amn. Marry the Chancellor.
No humans tho.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Marsi » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:48 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:12 am
... which is a political clusterfuck. It always has been, it always will be, and it's great because it allows the Leadership of the Day to come in and try to craft some political machination in their own image. It's really cool. Settlement politics should be a sandbox that let creative players play politics as the way they (and the community) at the time, fits, and sees appropriate. There should be some broad thematic strokes (it's not a rights-based democracy and leaders are not appointed by the gods) but otherwise, let players define and redefine.
I agree. My dream settlement system of the future would allow for players to totally shape the economic/ideological/legal policy of their realm (and be heavily tied into some sort of faction vs. faction struggle rather than an impotent and anti-climatic vote). Sliders and utilities rather than preset conditions allow the government to craft monarchy or socialist state or anything in between. There are those who think that politics aren't important in the game and it's influence should be nullified, but in my opinion it's the ultimate expression of Arelithian™ values, namely player agency and organisation, and so it should be a very carefully considered, free-form suite of mechanics.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

I'm in the other camp. I feel that an NPC figure above the player leaders is important. Like, no, you cannot wage war with the King's troops without permission. You're here to make the city prosper, not fulfill your own personal agenda.

Naturally, there's plenty of characters who WILL have an agenda and that's great, it makes for an amazing story with tense conflict, opposition, and so on. But even leaders should have some form of limitation - and in my opinion even more than there is now. It shouldn't be THAT easy to exile people or evict properties for no reason at all other than "my character doesn't like that character". It's almost like we're breaching into the 'Be nice' rule. Almost.

Furthermore, I partially agree with Cortex's suggestion, at least the part where he mentions a council. I do believe a council is necessary for settlements. The size could depend on how many citizens there are, and so forth.

The reason being is that right now we're seeing officials getting elected, then evicting people left and right whom they aren't buddies with just to make room for their own buddies - and then using some poor excuse in-game for it. Excuse me, but we already have a property counter in place that puts your property on sale if you aren't using it. In my eyes, it borders close to griefing when a leader has the option to one-click evict or exile someone without being accountable to anyone in any way or form.

Evictions should cost a lot of money, especially if said property belongs to a citizen of the settlement. It should also be a corporate decision where a single leader mechanically won't be able to do it by themselves (not sure how you would mechanically implement this). The same idea goes for exiling, though I know the builders have restricted it over the years with sharp limits to how many people a settlement can exile - which is something I appreciate.

We are debating that simply putting in contract for an assassination of someone hinders them from running. Yet, they still get to roam around in their city. They still have their property. If you want to debate something being too easy, let's talk about how easy it is for a chancellor to evict property. Let's bring up how easy it is for someone to exile people.

Evicting and exiling should come at a cost. Citizens should be able to dispute this and bring it to court.


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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Nekonecro » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:45 pm

You have to consider the setting from an aspect of story telling, not keeping stability.
Yes it's easy to exile, there isn't a set of upheld rights in place as there is in real life to prevent the goverment from kicking you out.

There needs to be room for govermental corruption. That makes more exciting stories than life as a paper pusher.
As an official you want your friends and allies in positions and properties, it builds a base of power.

Consider stories like Robin Hood, some say he was a noble kicked out of his lands and properties by a corrupt king and his court.
Do you really think it would be as exciting if he stayed at home and lived happy families?
The server is supposed to be for adventure stories rather than second life.

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:00 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm
I'm in the other camp. I feel that an NPC figure above the player leaders is important. Like, no, you cannot wage war with the King's troops without permission. You're here to make the city prosper, not fulfill your own personal agenda.

Naturally, there's plenty of characters who WILL have an agenda and that's great, it makes for an amazing story with tense conflict, opposition, and so on. But even leaders should have some form of limitation - and in my opinion even more than there is now. It shouldn't be THAT easy to exile people or evict properties for no reason at all other than "my character doesn't like that character". It's almost like we're breaching into the 'Be nice' rule. Almost.

Furthermore, I partially agree with Cortex's suggestion, at least the part where he mentions a council. I do believe a council is necessary for settlements. The size could depend on how many citizens there are, and so forth.

The reason being is that right now we're seeing officials getting elected, then evicting people left and right whom they aren't buddies with just to make room for their own buddies - and then using some poor excuse in-game for it. Excuse me, but we already have a property counter in place that puts your property on sale if you aren't using it. In my eyes, it borders close to griefing when a leader has the option to one-click evict or exile someone without being accountable to anyone in any way or form.

Evictions should cost a lot of money, especially if said property belongs to a citizen of the settlement. It should also be a corporate decision where a single leader mechanically won't be able to do it by themselves (not sure how you would mechanically implement this). The same idea goes for exiling, though I know the builders have restricted it over the years with sharp limits to how many people a settlement can exile - which is something I appreciate.

We are debating that simply putting in contract for an assassination of someone hinders them from running. Yet, they still get to roam around in their city. They still have their property. If you want to debate something being too easy, let's talk about how easy it is for a chancellor to evict property. Let's bring up how easy it is for someone to exile people.

Evicting and exiling should come at a cost. Citizens should be able to dispute this and bring it to court.
Councils are, it's safe to say, a pretty awful idea. You only need to look at the Devils' Table for concrete examples as to why.

The rest of this screams of "It should be against the rules to be corrupt IG!" which is just silly. Players already have a recourse if the government of Cordor gets too bad (Because we're pretty obviously talking about Qasi/Cordor); Elections, and assassinations. Win the election and you don't have to worry about getting evicted. Kill the chancellor, same deal. If you think someone is actually breaking the rules and being a bad boy on an Out of Character level, report it. Otherwise, most of this sounds like it falls under perfectly fine and justifiable in character conflict.

Most of these suggestions would drive Cordor towards even more of an overly accepting modern hugbox, and stifle player conflict. That's the exact opposite of what the server needs.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by sad_zav » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:09 pm

i'm going to have to step in MissEvelyn because that's at least twice now you're either playing a really bad game of telephone or deliberately misinforming people

i hope it's the former

either way, you seem to believe these accusations and they're very hurtful. i think you should take a step back.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by flower » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:10 pm

Nekonecro wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:45 pm
You have to consider the setting from an aspect of story telling, not keeping stability.
Yes it's easy to exile, there isn't a set of upheld rights in place as there is in real life to prevent the goverment from kicking you out.

There needs to be room for govermental corruption. That makes more exciting stories than life as a paper pusher.
As an official you want your friends and allies in positions and properties, it builds a base of power.

Consider stories like Robin Hood, some say he was a noble kicked out of his lands and properties by a corrupt king and his court.
Do you really think it would be as exciting if he stayed at home and lived happy families?
The server is supposed to be for adventure stories rather than second life.
Without certain degree of stability you cannot tell stories of factions because noone sane would settle in city where leaders change like socks and where you can loose guildhouse overnight. What you would gain from a settlement where almost no chancellor lasts more than month and everything changes each month? It is maybe good for stories of villains how They murder people, rob them or corrupt city, but what about, majority of people who want to play story of their faction, have a shop, or decent house in Cordor? Who are not interested in political mess but want to adventure, have guildhouse and hold faction related things inside?

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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:13 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:15 am
There is a bit of usefulness in having an NPC Figure in Cordor for DM use when things enter problem territory. Rarely used, but it allows us to shift things back IC. Both major starting places (Cordor and Skal) are like this for that reason. I don't see that ever changing.
While the "scorpion pits" are a thing of a part of Arelithian mythology, the infrequency of DM intervention is outweighed by how the political system is detrimental to fostering roleplay.

I'm sure DMs and Devs can get creative if player(s) are abusing the system and being awful and need to interfere, and do so without resorting to AMN and KING.

Also, to build on Hunter's point, I find it fascinating that people froth over property rights (eviction notices, etc.) and the need for "stability." Those are great arguments!

Literally the whole Middle Ages is about the development of property rights in Europe.

If they're so important to people, it should dictate roleplay. The problem is that people want the CAKE of "medievalism" but they don't want to EAT the part about "a ruler can evict you from your land, reshape a demense, rob you of inheritance, and mess with all your property."

Like we could go on about this stuff for days. It's why there's so many problems. There's absolutely no consensus on settlement politics. People want intrigue but they don't want people to be intriguing when it affects them; people want to be all 13th C but they don't want to be rudely banished and stripped and thrown to the wayside; people want stability but then you get a bunch of gold and then what? Politics is about power, and since we're not 21st C checks-and-balances and rule-of-law, Arelith's political has to strive to create power imbalances (that are also somehow equitable)

We could beat a dead horse.

... ironically, we're like Cordor.

But "modern hugbox", I like that.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:19 pm

flower wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:10 pm
Without certain degree of stability you cannot tell stories of factions because noone sane would settle in city where leaders change like socks and where you can loose guildhouse overnight. What you would gain from a settlement where almost no chancellor lasts more than month and everything changes each month? It is maybe good for stories of villains how They murder people, rob them or corrupt city, but what about, majority of people who want to play story of their faction, have a shop, or decent house in Cordor? Who are not interested in political mess but want to adventure, have guildhouse and hold faction related things inside?
I echo this sentiment. There are some people who aren't interested in playing the politics, and that's fine. They should be welcome to continue to run their tavern, playhouse, merchantile, magi guild, and etc. if they wish to, without having some fear on an OOC level that they aren't able to do so because of how chaotic and wild the political system can get.

I do, to a huge degree, agree with Hunter's post. Anyone who knows me knows how much I value immersion here. But, like I've said before, there has to be a fine line between immersion and fun. There's nothing immersion-breaking about a council of leaders being accountable to a king or another leaderly figure (like Amn). That doesn't mean they can't rule. Nor does it mean they can't be corrupt and evil and plotting schemes against gods-know-who-or-what. It simply means if they overstep their bounds, daddy Amn can step in and stop them from turning the entire city into ruins.
Out of character that translates to completely ruining all fun and stability, which is something, believe it or not, a server DOES need a healthy dose of.

I refer back to to DM Grumpy's post in the same thread about permadeath with the immersion vs fun debate.

sad_zav wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:09 pm
i'm going to have to step in MissEvelyn because that's at least twice now you're either playing a really bad game of telephone or deliberately misinforming people

i hope it's the former

either way, you seem to believe these accusations and they're very hurtful. i think you should take a step back.
Please read my post over again. There are no personal attacks there, simply statements and a few suggestions. If someone was hurt or caused grief by any words I wrote, then I'm sorry, for they were never meant to hurt anyone.


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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by sad_zav » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:22 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

The reason being is that right now we're seeing officials getting elected, then evicting people left and right whom they aren't buddies with just to make room for their own buddies - and then using some poor excuse in-game for it. Excuse me, but we already have a property counter in place that puts your property on sale if you aren't using it. In my eyes, it borders close to griefing when a leader has the option to one-click evict or exile someone without being accountable to anyone in any way or form.
um
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:28 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:22 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:36 pm

The reason being is that right now we're seeing officials getting elected, then evicting people left and right whom they aren't buddies with just to make room for their own buddies - and then using some poor excuse in-game for it. Excuse me, but we already have a property counter in place that puts your property on sale if you aren't using it. In my eyes, it borders close to griefing when a leader has the option to one-click evict or exile someone without being accountable to anyone in any way or form.
um
Again, not a personal attack, merely an observation based on what I've seen and what others have told me. And in the post I'm arguing that something like that should be harder to pull off. If the devs and builders disagree, then that's fine. This is the feedback forum and we're free to give our input, and the devs are equally free to take it or leave it.
--

Anyway, to build upon the current debate, I'd like to add that both citizenship and nobility should mean something. Citizens should have the right to dispute, whether it's an exile or an eviction. Being a citizen should have its perks.

I'd even go as far and say that nobles should have the right to dispute changes in the law and call for hearings from the leaders. Being a noble should also mean something within a settlement.
Last edited by MissEvelyn on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:29 pm

flower wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:10 pm
Nekonecro wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:45 pm
You have to consider the setting from an aspect of story telling, not keeping stability.
Yes it's easy to exile, there isn't a set of upheld rights in place as there is in real life to prevent the goverment from kicking you out.

There needs to be room for govermental corruption. That makes more exciting stories than life as a paper pusher.
As an official you want your friends and allies in positions and properties, it builds a base of power.

Consider stories like Robin Hood, some say he was a noble kicked out of his lands and properties by a corrupt king and his court.
Do you really think it would be as exciting if he stayed at home and lived happy families?
The server is supposed to be for adventure stories rather than second life.
Without certain degree of stability you cannot tell stories of factions because noone sane would settle in city where leaders change like socks and where you can loose guildhouse overnight. What you would gain from a settlement where almost no chancellor lasts more than month and everything changes each month? It is maybe good for stories of villains how They murder people, rob them or corrupt city, but what about, majority of people who want to play story of their faction, have a shop, or decent house in Cordor? Who are not interested in political mess but want to adventure, have guildhouse and hold faction related things inside?
While I agree with your sanity argument's premise, I feel this is a flawed perspective of Cordor. I can name more than three chancellors off the top of my head who have held power for consecutive terms in the last year and small change- some who wanted it, and some who desperately wanted a replacement. I can say the same of guard faction leaders.

What I have experienced anecdotally as the key figure to how long a leader lasts (both secondhand and first) is their ability to hold people together- and make no mistake, in a trade-hub like Cordor you will absolutely run into many characters who absolutely despise each other, so this is no easy task. Some characters have a magnetic sort of pull that make people want to keep them on-screen, and how that person handles the inevitable interactions of their friends-who-aren't-friends-with-each-other as a result is the crux of everything a faction can accomplish.

I believe the settlement system isn't perfect, but I do like that it puts such a large emphasis on this particular role, and that factions in power find themselves made or broken on this premise. It's very appropriate, IMO.
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by sad_zav » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:33 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:28 pm

Again, not a personal attack, merely an observation based on what I've seen and what others have told me. And in the post I'm arguing that something like that should be harder to pull off.
the "observation" that people are "evicting people left and right whom they aren't buddies with just to make room for their own buddies - and then using some poor excuse in-game for it" is stated much like a fact. the only part of that post that's an opinion is "In my eyes, it borders close to griefing when a leader has the option to one-click evict or exile someone without being accountable to anyone in any way or form", but even then, you're talking about how you think people are borderline griefing

i guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a personal attack. yours does seem conveniently narrow
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Re: Cordor Elections & Assassinations

Post by DM Chiliad » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:35 pm

We're done here. Great talk everyone. Hit the showers.

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